00:02
This is a Global Player original podcast.
00:06
Three minutes after 10 is the time. It's not the most obvious question to ask or indeed the most important element of the issues. But there are two big stories, big international stories. There are several, but to draw the eye particularly this morning, one, of course, involves FIFA and the, well, I mean, doughty defence of decency being mounted by UEFA of all people. It's a timely reminder of what happens if everybody unites and acts consistently. Imagine if the US media had behaved towards Donald Trump as the European Football Federation is behaving towards Gianni, his mate Gianni Infantino.
00:44
And the second story, of course, is the announcement today by Trump that peace in the Middle East is on the way, or at least the cessation of the carnage, the genocide in Gaza.
00:55
And they've got something in common. It's twofold. You might work out half of it, and then if you work out half of it, you'll be able to work out the rest of it. But I'm going to leave that thought hanging for a while. What on earth links the hideous story about attempts to exploit the World Cup for the enrichment? Well, I'm beginning to give you clues now. What on earth links the FIFA story to the Gaza story? Um...
01:20
It's never going to happen, is it?
01:23
The world working out a way to treat Trump with the derision he so clearly deserves.
01:31
It is a tragedy for our age that if Donald Trump appeared on television claiming... that he has cured the common cold or that he has solved mathematical riddles that have tested humanity since the time of Isaac Newton. If he appeared on television claiming to be a nuclear physicist or explaining how he was going to inhabit Mars, people would cheer him.
01:57
People would cheer him. Dick Littlejohn would write a Daily Mail column about how incredible it is that Donald Trump has cured the common cold and solved...
02:07
timeless mathematical mysteries and somehow worked out a way to live on Mars he'd write a column about it and probably use it as an opportunity to attack Andy Burnham and various other members of the UK media would ask incredibly fatuous questions like is this the end of the common cold or has this changed your view of Donald Trump or are we looking at a new world or and it is incredible to me That we're all still, this isn't just a criticism of the toe-ticklers and the wombats who haven't been able to see clearly how hideous Donald Trump is from the very, very start.
02:43
It seems incredible to me. We still don't know how to deal with it. Because here's the thing, right? Come here a minute.
02:50
If the President of the United States announces something, even if he has, imagine if the boy who cried wolf was the President of the United States. Oh, this is good. I hadn't thought of this before.
03:02
You know the story of the boy who cried wolf, right?
03:05
The boy cries wolf so many times that when there is no wolf, he just enjoys the fuss that it creates in the way that perhaps announcing things with regard to Iran, you might enjoy the impact that it has upon oil prices or share prices in general. So you announce things that are not true.
03:22
because you enjoy the reaction that is i think a fairly neat distillation of the boy who cried wolf is it an aesop fable the boy who cried wolf or is it just a a kind of um one handed down through the ages is it just part of an oral tradition i don't know it doesn't matter you do it you announce it um because you enjoy the reaction even though you know it's not true. I'm not sure we can say the second bit about Trump. I think his relationship with truth and reality is at the very least strained and quite possibly non-existent.
03:55
But the rest of us know it's not true.
03:57
And the parable of the boy who cried wolf stands. We don't need to analyse whether or not Donald Trump realises that there's no wolf. He announces it because he enjoys, in some sense, because he enjoys the...
04:09
Yeah.
04:11
But it's not true. How many times have we heard him say that the war against Iran is over?
04:18
Actually close to countless now.
04:21
He announces it. It's not true. I mean, think about the election, the 2020 election. How many times has he claimed he won that? It's not true. He enjoys the reaction, not in the sense of a share price going up, but in the sense that it chips away at the notion of democracy in the United States.
04:37
of America being trustworthy or reliable, which means if he loses another election, for example, the midterms, he'll be able to claim that he has been a victim of some sort of conspiracy or some sort of...
04:51
robbery or corruption he says things that are not true because of the reaction the announcements are a means to an end just like the boy who cried wolf shouted wolf and all the villagers came running and there was no wolf so that when he shouted wolf and there was a wolf nobody came and all the sheep got eaten I should have done a spoiler alert there in case you've never actually read or listened to the end of the boy the fable of the boy who cried wolf So when Donald Trump announces that a historic agreement has been reached to disarm Hamas and other militant groups inside Gaza, you have to report it.
05:28
You have to run towards the flock of sheep because the shepherd has shouted wolf. You have to report it. You have to treat it as if it were a trustworthy, honest, reliable president who had announced it, such as off the top of my head, Barack Obama or Bill Clinton. You have to.
05:46
Or I think George W. Bush or his father actually announced serial untruths for fun. So you can stick them on the list as well. Let's try not to be partisan about this.
05:58
You have to report it, even though the man is, I mean, he uses capital letters in a way that most toddlers have grown out of. Peace and security are in capital letters. Monumental step using his own ludicrous social media platform to announce that Israeli forces would withdraw from Gaza, despite the fact that literally no comment has been made by Israel. Let me be absolutely clear.
06:22
I mean, it has to end one day, right?
06:25
That's going to be my second question today. It has to end one day. And when it does, he will claim the credit. You are familiar with the rather more modern parable of the pigeon playing chess, right? A pigeon plays chess. There is no point playing chess with a pigeon because you'll play your best moves and the pigeon will poop all over the board, knock over all the pieces and then strut around the place claiming that they've secured a glorious victory. If ever humankind had somehow managed to create a chess-playing pigeon...
06:52
That man is Donald Trump. And one day it will be true. And then, of course, Hamas come out and say, yeah, we're on board with this because they know, I think, and listen, I could be wrong. One day it will be true. They know, I think, that Israel won't.
07:11
I don't know how Israel... I mean, didn't Benjamin Netanyahu promise to eradicate Hamas in the same way that Donald Trump said he was going to eradicate the Iranian regime, which is currently led by the son of the man who was leading it when he said he was going to eradicate the regime?
07:25
Hamas officials said that a committee established by Trump's Board of Peace to govern Gaza would oversee the process of storing its weapons. Storing its weapons. That's an interesting word as well.
07:35
So you have to talk about it as if it is epic news because potentially it is and one day it will be. And yet at the same time, as anybody with a modicum of intelligence or anyone who has been paying the vaguest bit of attention or anybody who's not high on the fumes of Trump's depravity will know, it's a hill of beans.
07:57
If you doubt how ridiculous it is to take this as gospel, then just remind yourself, refresh your memory of what has gone on.
08:06
with regard to Iran. And that joke that was funny for about five minutes that I was making about the Craig David lyrics needing to be changed because he announces a ceasefire on a Monday, resumes offensives on a Tuesday, threatens them on a Wednesday, announces victory on a Thursday, and is back to bombing them on a Friday. We chilled on Sunday. It's still quite funny if you've got a mischievous sense of humor like mine, and I'm fully aware of the seriousness of the subject that we are discussing.
08:33
And what do you do?
08:37
A senior Hamas official has, I think, told the BBC that Hamas has made a difficult decision and a concession to save the Palestinians of Gaza who were facing extermination.
08:47
The agreement contains a clear provision stating that Israel must commit to and implement its obligations. So I think Trump is probably, and I'm about to ask you a question about what you think is going on here, what you think is really going on here.
09:02
I think it's probably a PR victory for Hamas.
09:06
Perish the thought, because they'll come out and say we're on board with it. Israel will not, and Hamas will therefore claim that they're acting in good faith, and Benjamin Netanyahu's regime is not.
09:20
And, of course, since the last ceasefire was announced, I'm afraid, and I will check this figure, I've lost count of the number of people who died. I can tell you because it's burnt in my memory that 1,200 people died during Hamas' attacks on Israel on October the 7th. And I think the last time I checked that Israel's response had killed more than 70,000 people, including, obviously, thousands upon thousands of children. And the strip itself has been...
09:48
Reduced largely to rubble. Some people, of course, and it's important to recognize their existence, still object to the use of the word genocide. But under most definitions of that word, I'm afraid the threshold was reached some time ago.
10:02
13 minutes after 10 is the time. So what do we do? I mean, I can't do it again.
10:10
What do we do? Do we run through the fictitious list of wars that he's ended and pretend that he is something other than a deranged liar is the nicest way I can put it?
10:21
I don't think he can sue me for that, can he? Although he might try. He tries to cow media organisations for telling the truth in the same way that our own little Timu Trump, Nigel Farage, is doing at the moment. But, I mean, what do you do?
10:35
How do you do it?
10:36
I think the question is twofold this morning. The first one is pretty straightforward. What do you actually think is going on here? And if you want to tell me that this should be treated in good faith, absolutely transparent, The Board of Peace have, against all odds and previous evidence, actually come through with something that is motivated entirely by concern for the people of Palestine and the security of the state of Israel and everybody involved is acting out of altruism and goodness. Then I might have a bridge to sell you, but I'd love to hear what you've got to say.
11:08
What do you think is really going on here? And you are allowed, of course, to agree with me. I think that Trump is doing what Trump does and just throwing some stuff at the wall in the hope that some of it will stick, allowing himself to spend a news cycle claiming victory, distracting slightly from Iran, trying to G up something with regard to the midterms. I mean, it doesn't really matter. Trying to analyze what Trump is doing is ridiculous. He does these things because he thinks the reaction might benefit him. And if it doesn't benefit him, he moves on to something else that might benefit him. like a kind of turbocharged Boris Johnson when it comes to opportunism and news cycles.
11:43
Why are Hamas playing ball with this announcement? Either because they believe it's true or because they believe that they engender or they secure positive PR as a result.
11:56
Hamas are not as responsible as Israel for the death of 70,000 people in the Gaza Strip. But my God, the blood on the hands of those terrorists is visible from space. So handing them any form of PR victory would be both disastrous and disgraceful.
12:14
But, but, but, but, everybody wants it to be real. Everybody wants it to end.
12:23
Which is my second question.
12:24
How do you think it does end?
12:27
I don't see how it ends while Benjamin Netanyahu is still in power. If anybody still doubts, and I fully appreciate that some people do doubt this to be true, they're the people that call you anti-Semitic if you shed tears over dead Palestinians or argue that Israel had no right to kill tens of thousands of people, innocent civilians.
12:47
They're the people who dispute this final observation, which is Benjamin Netanyahu can't be in charge while this... peace is achieved because his survival and his regime depends entirely upon the support of people who want and who have said that they would like to remove Gaza from the face of the earth. It talked about dropping a nuclear bomb on it. I think, was it the defence minister who only this week was talking about the view, the actual vista, the physical perspective of Gaza now not having any buildings, interrupting a view to the sea?
13:24
What's actually happening? Tell me what you think is happening here. And that involves Donald Trump's announcement, Hamas's agreement, and Israel's current silence. That could end, of course, in the course of this program. It could end in the course of this hour. It could end in the little break that we're about to go to, in which case we'll have to recalibrate the question slightly when we come back. And we haven't had a phone in on this for a while. And I don't know why we suffer from horror fatigue and we can talk about it every day for a fortnight.
13:56
And in the aftermath of October the 7th, of course, we talked about these issues for a long, long time. And we noted together that moment when the reaction moved from proportionate to disproportionate and then from disproportionate to attempted ethnic cleansing or...
14:14
Unconscionable carnage or genocide whichever word you prefer to use unless you're one of those people who accuses anybody Who cries the same amount of tears over a dead Israeli child that they do over a Palestinian child of being anti-semitic of course if you're one of those people then you don't recognize that the response has and Very quickly has been and very quickly became hideously disproportionate and and you never will and I acknowledge your existence and I kind of understand your motivation and even as you contribute to the context in which this carnage continues and Israel's status in the world has been absolutely beyond tarnished by Benjamin Netanyahu.
14:55
That's on you, but you'll never understand that. And that's fine too.
15:00
But what is actually happening today?
15:05
And, of course, because we haven't talked about this for a while, you're welcome to bring other elements into the conversation as I nudge you towards the second question, which is, of course, how can it actually end? I've got no idea what the answer to that question is in the context of Iran, except that at some point the United States is going to have to accept defeat without acknowledging it.
15:27
That's the crucial part. As long as Trump is in power, the only way the situation in Iran ends is with the acceptance of defeat without any acknowledgement of defeat. They will accept that they're not going to win while claiming that they've won. That is Trumpism in a nutshell.
15:44
I don't know what happens because there are so many more moving parts. I don't know what happens in Gaza.
15:50
I have a view on what's happening today. It could be wrong. Yours might be better. 03456060973. But second question is, how actually can it, does it, will it end? 03456060973. That's it. That's the phone in. Two questions.
16:10
What's going on today with regards to Trump, Hamas and Israel? And how can it, does it, will it actually end? And will it end when it ends? Or will it just be another...
16:24
stalemate, another stagnation, another continuing of the imprisonment of the Palestinian people until a point where the terrorists who achieve the whip hand in those sort of contexts commit another atrocity and Israel responds by committing atrocities of its own and everybody looks in horror at the situation and waits for a return to what? To the normality? To the stalemate? Does it ever end? We'll be talking about this. They carry me out of this studio.
16:54
Still asking the same question? I don't know.
16:58
Hit the numbers now. You will get through. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3 is the number you need. It's 20 past 10.
17:05
22 minutes after 10 and of course Netanyahu was in DC wasn't he this week or late last week and the ongoing situation in the West Bank there, the crimes being committed by the illegally occupying Israelis in the West Bank may be part of your answer to the question of why this has been announced this week. Do you think Netanyahu and Trump might have come to some sort of arrangement? Move the spotlight back to Gaza while we carry on illegally occupying territory and attacking residents of the West Bank.
17:36
I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. But I do know this. It was going to be a heck of a lot more complicated than anything that Donald Trump has announced this morning. Mo's in Birmingham. Mo, what's going on? And if you fancy a crack at the big question, how on earth does it, will it, can it end?
17:50
Right. I'll come to that last part at the end, as stated. OK, in regards to what Hamas is looking at this and maybe potentially the other armed groups within the Palestinian organization, I think there are a number of factors. I think the first factor, and this is entirely practical, their weapons have lost the value that they may have held 10 or 15 years ago.
18:18
They are not stupid people. They're seeing modern warfare. They've seen how Israel has fought this war with the use of drones, air force and so on. A Palestinian RPG or AK-47 is no longer fit for purpose when it comes to resisting the Israeli armed forces. And so they think the value of us giving it up is far better when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of people worldwide than it is for us to retain it and to fight what is, you know, a war that isn't, you know, a battle that isn't, you know, going to go in our favor.
18:58
So there is that practical value.
19:01
The second one is that they believe, and in the same way it parallels what the Iranians have come to the conclusion when it comes to their potential pursuit of nuclear weapons.
19:15
I think... They believe that the PR war, and I don't like using the word war, but I'll say it anyway, the PR war of Palestinians suffering and suffering great injustice in Gaza and in the West Bank, and these are Palestinians that are overwhelmingly not armed, is far more valuable.
19:38
And it's pretty much over.
19:41
It's pretty much over, I think. I think it's pretty much won. Unless you're in a sort of very echoey Facebook group or a very self-selecting circle, the global attitude towards what Israel has done.
19:53
Gaza is edging ever closer to unanimity. I mean, it is an extraordinary disaster for people who believe in the modern state of Israel that Benjamin Netanyahu has turned it into such an unprecedented pariah.
20:12
And I think that's important. Now, the other part is that Israel is going to go through an election.
20:17
In October, I think.
20:19
There are... Large parts of Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition that thrives on war, that actually enjoys war and conflict.
20:30
And this is why, I mean, we're talking about the cohort represented most obviously by Smotrich and Ben Gavir.
20:37
Yes.
20:38
And this is why they could never agree to this.
20:41
They can't, but the point is...
20:42
But everybody knows this. Sorry to get frustrated. I'm not frustrated with you. Everybody knows this, except people who, I mean, unforgivably don't even have the curiosity to understand the most basic tenets of this issue. And there are plenty of them in the British media. But everybody knows that Netanyahu's government faults if Smotrich and Ben Gavir walk. And Smotrich and Ben Gavir are committed to the crimes that are currently being committed in the West Bank. So the idea of them agreeing to anything that Hamas are happy with is, I think, for the birds, no?
21:15
And yet we all still report it as if this is feasible and plausible and real.
21:21
But it's the fact that if there are no bullets coming the other way, if there are no rockets coming the other way, are they going to just go in like a pack of lions into a cave with undefended people and just ravage away? It just looks terrible. It looks awful. And it's something that's actually very difficult to sell to the Israeli public in an election time.
21:47
And I think that really severely undermines that coalition. If there is war, James, in my point of view, I can't see how Netanyahu does not come back.
22:00
I think the presence of war, he needs conflict in Lebanon, in Syria, in Gaza, the West Bank and Iran to come back into power. And if there is no war...
22:15
His coalition, which thrives upon it and which needs it, just cannot sustain itself. And I think that is a conclusion that potentially Hamas is hedged on. And there is a final aspect of it.
22:28
I think they have received guarantees from friendly nations in the region who haven't quite promised them the blank check if the Israelis renege, but are becoming more and more involved.
22:44
And I think they've decided that actually we're going to do this.
22:51
That doesn't mean that they're going to become a peace-loving, Western-style, democratic, liberal party. I think they'll be always committed to having one state between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan.
23:05
But they've decided that their individual resistance at this moment of time here is no longer a requirement.
23:14
I hesitate to ask you this question because it is like trying to, it's like trying to ask you to commentate on the annual Herding Cats Championship. But what's Trump doing this morning?
23:27
I think, look, there's been, again, a lot of press about what the hell is the Board of Gaza Peace been doing over these last months. So this is a little sop to that.
23:37
There is also, I think, a great deal of disappointment from a number of his Arab allies upon what they perceive is his inability to protect them from Iranian aggression.
23:50
And this is a way of him showing that, look, he can do something to help them out.
23:54
OK, I think there has been a lot of disappointment.
23:57
OK, I hadn't thought of that.
23:59
Yeah, there's been a lot of disappointment. If you remember, about a week ago, he announced a major nuclear deal with Saudi Arabia, whereby Saudi Arabia will be allowed to have uranium enrichment in its country. And then he wrote back to say that, oh, that will only be allowed, actually, if he recognises or if Saudi Arabia joins an updated version of the Abraham Accords. And Saudi Arabia has said very often that he won't join the Abraham Accords unless there are firm moves towards or the presence of a Palestinian state.
24:31
And this is a sort of sop again to that, because, again, if you look at the framework that's been provided, there is again talk of a potentially upgraded Palestinian government, you know, a governance system. a mechanism that will allow self-rule. So it is to sort of say that, look, we are moving towards that. Now, are you going to talk about potentially normalizing with Israel? And then we could talk about, you know, getting this nuclear deal into place.
25:04
I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but Israeli public opinion is largely in favour of war for the reasons that you have partly described. Netanyahu's pitch is that he's the only person that can keep people safe from all of these issues. or barbarians at the gate. And then, of course, that's why the October 7th atrocity... Yeah, I'll slightly amend that.
25:25
Go on. I wouldn't say all of Israeli public. I would say the electorate that votes for Netanyahu...
25:32
I think I've seen figures in the region of 80%, certainly not that recently, but certainly in the not-too-distant past in terms of the war against Iran and possibly the continuing attacks on Gaza. I think there's pretty deep and wide public support for that.
25:49
I think, would that support exist?
25:51
And if it does exist, I'd be really worried about the status of the Israeli public if their enemy has not a gun to fire back with. At this moment of time, they could perceive and say that we've got an enemy that is dedicated to doing multiple October the 7th. If that enemy no longer can do that, and their only weapon is to politically agitate, which, let's be honest here, if Hamas... have a democratic mandate to always... you know, potentially... Well, they don't really.
26:22
I mean, the election was, I mean, yonks ago, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. I mean, I know it's popular to argue that the Palestinian people elected Hamas many years ago, and therefore they must also all be in favour of the October the 7th atrocities. It's a sort of moral somersault that allows some people to justify their own support for Benjamin Netanyahu's atrocities in Gaza. But I don't think they've got much of a mandate under any... No, no, no, no.
26:47
It needs a new election now, I think. Yeah.
26:49
Well, then, I mean, late for the news, I always enjoy talking to you, Moe. Thank you for being such a deep thinker. But in some ways, then, if we were trying, and I know it's ridiculous, and I know I always say we shouldn't, and then I know I always end up doing it, but if we were trying to work out what Trump was playing at here, in some ways, what we're looking at is actually a form of aperitif for the Israeli elections in October.
27:12
Yes.
27:14
I think, look...
27:16
This solution that he's provided is not good for Netanyahu, which again makes me think here. I think, again, going back to Iran and Iran, the Iran conflict is the main one and what's happening in the Straits of Hormuz is the main one.
27:31
I think there's, you know, Netanyahu, no, no, sorry, Trump does not want the war to continue. He wants oil to come down as quickly as possible. He doesn't want to run through all the potential controversy of claiming that the midterm elections are... fraudulent they're rigged because he has lost because the public is not happy with his cost of living management his numbers are absolutely tanking he doesn't want to go through all of that okay but he may have to because it's you know the only option for him is that he wins he's not going to accept a democratic dominated house and senate okay okay let's steer you back if i may and a brief answer because i'm very late for the news what's israel going to do Netanyahu will do everything he can.
28:19
No, no, right now, today, because every headline, every television screen in the country has got Israel are yet to comment on it at the moment.
28:26
Yeah, I think they'll continue the silence.
28:28
Whoa, okay. I'm not turning this into a game or doing any mystic jimmery or anything like that, but I am fascinated to know, what do you think Israel is going to do? Because that's part of the answer to the two questions that I'm asking.
28:39
If you want to provide your answers to any of these questions, 03456060973 is the number you need. It's 1033. Dominic Ellis has your headlines.
28:47
It is 10.36 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC.
28:54
Tariq writes, do you really think Israel wants peace while they are trying to destroy the West Bank? It's a joke. Nick says, does James not think that rather than just seeking a reaction, Trump in fact believes much of what he says, such as the level of his cognitive decline. He achieves the worst of both worlds. in demonstrating an unhealthy mix of confabulation and connivance. Joyce suggests or says, I don't have the answer to what happens in Gaza, but I know that no one cares what happens to the people.
29:20
I mean, I presume when you say no one, Joyce, you've got a collection of individuals in mind, but I think that you're wrong to suggest that no one cares what happens to the people. John says, this will end when Smotrich and Bengavir bring Netanyahu down with a vote. That's from Swanage.
29:37
And this is, of course, in answer to the very specific question of what you think is really going on.
29:43
This is Amir suggesting that Netanyahu's visit to the USA has led to a new plan which allows Israel to annex the West Bank completely because it is more valuable to them than Gaza.
29:54
I get a lot of abuse on days like, well, I don't get abuse. I just get people suggesting that I shouldn't be using the word genocide, which is perfectly reasonable.
30:02
And even Suzanne suggesting that I should look it up in a dictionary. Well, you know, I'm no expert on this. So let's turn to a resolution passed by the International Association of Genocide Scholars, shall we? Is that good enough for you, Suzanne? An International Association of Genocide Scholars?
30:18
Brackets. I know it isn't. Close brackets because they're going to say something you don't want to hear. Israel's conduct, they found last year, meets the legal definition as laid out in the UN Convention on Genocide. That's a three-page resolution in which the International Association of Genocide Scholars presented a litany of actions undertaken by Israel throughout the then 22-month long war that it recognizes as constituting genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. But of course, the International Association of Genocide Scholars are tongue slightly in cheek here.
30:53
open to accusations of bias and or anti-Semitism. So let's turn instead to some Israeli organizations that are dedicated to human rights. Let's look for example at Physicians for Human Rights Israel and an organization you may have come across which I'll probably mispronounce called B'Tselem.
31:11
They have also concluded that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. with the publication of these two reports. It was stated last year, roughly this time last year, actually, the 28th of July, but Salem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel become the first two Israeli organizations, Israeli organizations, to state it loud and clear. Based on meticulous documentation and research, Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. This is another milestone in the human rights community's efforts to hold Israeli authorities accountable for their crimes against Israel.
31:45
Palestinians. So you've got the International Association of Genocide Scholars. You've got two of the leading human rights organizations in Israel itself. And just to go for the hat trick, Suzanne, Israel has committed genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem and Israel, said in a new report today urging Israel and all states to fulfill their legal obligations under international law to end the genocide and punish those responsible for it.
32:16
So I'm going to cautiously suggest that either you pick a fight with the International Association of Genocide Scholars, the UN Commission, the International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, or indeed the Israeli Human Rights Organizations, but Suleman Physicians for Human Rights, over their definition of the word, or perhaps, Suzanne, you'd transfer your attentions to the people committing the genocide and suggest that they understand what it is they're doing and what the word means, rather than suggesting that I somehow need a dictionary.
32:53
And that is the sound of wasted breath.
32:57
Because there are people who are utterly, utterly immune to reason, findings, evidence, and of course the evidence of their own eyes and ears.
33:07
10.41 is the time. 03456060973 is the number you need if you want to tell me. What you think is happening today, Israel still to comment, and how on earth this ends, or what on earth the resolution looks like. Because I don't think, and I hope I'm wrong, I don't think it looks like this. 10.41 is the time. Ahmed is in Islington. Ahmed, what would you like to say?
33:32
Thank you. I just want to say that, you know, this is not the first time that the Palestinians fulfilled their end of any agreement with Israel.
33:42
And certainly Israel is not going to fulfill its end of the agreement. If we look at history of the conflict, if you like, between Israel and Palestinians, Israel has never, ever fulfilled its end of the agreement. So I don't know why we should be hopeful on this, not even the ceasefire.
34:01
Respectfully, I don't hold a great deal of hope or trust in Hamas's position on these issues either. So, I mean, they've come out and said we will abide by it. I thought that Moe in Birmingham's analysis of the pragmatism that may lie behind that with the irrelevance or the redundancy of their weapons cash was interesting. But I certainly don't think that the trustworthiness of Israel is any less than the trustworthiness of Hamas.
34:28
Well, the point is that we need to look at who has got the upper hand here and who has the power to make a change. And that's Israel, not Hamas. And currently, what we are really seeing is the fact that, for example, Hamas committed to the ceasefire. They haven't fired anything since the ceasefire started on Israel. Whereas Israel has killed more than 1,000 Palestinians and only yesterday killed six people in Gaza. So they never really committed to any of agreements that they signed with the Palestinians.
35:01
Look at, for example, Oslo. agreement that they signed in 1994, I think.
35:07
And they never committed to that. The settlements expanded more than ever after they signed an agreement which was supposed to lead to a Palestinian state after five years. And it never did because Israel was expanding its settlements, its illegal settlements. Look at West Bank, look at Lebanon, look at Syria as well, look at how Israel is acting in the region.
35:28
I have done, and I do, and I will, but I just, I mean, apart from the observation that Israel are not to be trusted, which is the point that you're making, and that is, of course, open to challenge and to analysis, until they announce... their response to this. We're kind of going over quite well-rehearsed territory. Why, if I push you instead towards the question of why do you think, what is Trump doing today? What is this announcement designed to do? And why do you think Hamas have been so quick to endorse it?
36:00
No, I don't think Hamas has been so quick. There's been a lot of pressure on Hamas to commit to this. So a lot of pressure from the region and globally as well from Egypt, Qatar, I believe, and other players in the region on this particular aspect for disarmament.
36:19
Now, Hamas was arguing that Israel will not commit to its end of the agreement, and that's why they didn't want to. But I think Hamas could not resist the pressure that they were facing, and then they had to come to this announcement. However, we know that Israel is not going to have enough pressure globally to come to it. So what do you think?
36:43
I don't want to badger you, but what's Trump playing at, Ahmed?
36:48
I think Trump has got, he feels in a position, also there is a pressure around him in a way that he feels in a position that he has to come up with some sort of announcement. But look at the announcement of the ceasefire. There was never ceasefire. The genocide carried on in Gaza. Still, up until this moment, I have my family live in Gaza and what's so-called the yellow line keeps getting closer and closer and squeezing people.
37:15
Just remind people listening what the yellow line is.
37:18
Yeah, the yellow line as well has imposed on Gaza, taking more than 70% of the Gaza territory.
37:24
So it's a sort of de facto border.
37:27
Exactly. And then they actually, every day, they push this yellow line further and further. Yellow cubes, semantic cubes, they push them further and further into the Palestinian area where people live in Gaza. And imagine that Gaza was one of the most densely populated areas in the world. And now they are all squeezed in only about 25% of the Gaza Strip.
37:54
So it's almost like what many people described it as a concentration camp now. And Israel doesn't look like it has the good intention to release the pressure on the Gaza people.
38:07
How will today's announcement from the White House and indeed from Hamas be greeted or processed by your family in Gaza, do you think?
38:17
I was going to say that, actually, it doesn't have in the region, in Gaza, like when I spoke to my family and friends, it doesn't have as much of a noise as it has in the Western media.
38:30
Because we've been here before.
38:32
Exactly. A lot of people are not really hopeful around the fact that Israel will commit to this agreement.
38:39
You know, people look at what's going on around them. They say, like, to me, look at what's going on in the West Bank. There's no Hamas in the West Bank. And then the violence and the killing of the Palestinians carrying on. Also, my sister actually just said to me, look at what's happening in Syria. And Syria in particular is a very good example that that was never any resistance from the Syrian people against Israel for occupying their land. and yet Israel is expanding in the Syrian land. So it's not about whether there is a resistance or there isn't, whether there is violence or there isn't.
39:13
It's about what Israel wants, and it's about the fact that Israel is committing many acts of war crimes and genocidal wars without being held accountable. I think we have to think about one thing. When Israel was held accountable for its action? Never.
39:32
So if you take it from 1900, from the year that Israel was created. Up until today, Israel was never held accountable for its action. Israel never paid any consequences for its action. So, of course, naturally, they will not commit to anything because they know if they don't commit, there will be no consequences. One last point I want to make about this, which is if you look at the elections in Israel today, And listen, just listen to the front runners in this election and listen to their campaign.
40:06
None of those guys is actually promoting their campaign as a promoting peace. They're all more more killing, more bloodshed in the region, more landing grabbing. Look at them and look from Bennett to Katz to Netanyahu to all of these guys. Their campaign is about more killing, more grabbing. They're even campaigning that they should take Gaza and get the people out or do whatever we like with the people, what we want Gaza Strip and tie off it. So those are the front runners in the Israeli elections.
40:38
And you can imagine what the kind of society that... we have created as a global at the world because we never held them accountable for their action. And that's where the problem is. I've heard many of your speakers saying that the problem is with the government.
40:55
You've heard me say that as well. And of course, I reference polling and I point out public support for...
41:01
some of this activity. But of course, the ultimate articulation of public feeling will come in the October elections. And as you say, it's not a happy prospect. Thank you, Ahmed. It's 10.49, quite late for the break. I hope you feel you've had an opportunity to put your point across properly. And of course, if you want to challenge anything Ahmed said, you know what to do. 03456060973. We'll catch up with our Jerusalem-based correspondent, Noga Tanopolsky, after this, I think.
41:31
10.52 is the time. Never do we dip our toe into discussions of the broader issues of the Middle East, but obviously particularly Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and attendant issues, without a few messages dropping into the studio, suggesting that we get in touch with Noga Tarnopolski, the freelance journalist based in Jerusalem, who has been a valued guide for an awful lot of these issues.
41:56
and action since the horrors of october the 7th 2023 and we turn to her once again today i mean just take it from the top really no you'll be aware of trump's announcement hamas's response and israel's current silence what should we make of it all good to see you
42:16
Look, this is Trump's style, certainly when it comes to the Middle East. He makes a big bombastic announcement. He very often will catch his closest allies by surprise, or almost. And then those of us trying to understand what's happening have to wait around and see what unfolds. So that's again the circumstance now, like we can say it was when he announced the ceasefire in Gaza.
42:41
back in October last year. The same thing with the MOU, by the way, the Memorandum of Understandings in the United States and Iran happened similarly.
42:51
The situation here is that Donald Trump's ceasefire over Gaza did have the immediate and massive effect of freeing the Israeli hostages and stopping, you know, the full bore war taking place in Gaza. And since then, it's been a stalemate. Many, many Gazans have died, including civilians, including two children just two days ago in Israeli strikes. Israelis always say they're operating against terror targets.
43:19
Everybody is stuck. And Donald Trump has wanted to get what he appointed, this Board of Peace, in and trying to move things. Apparently, this is Jared Kushner's number one task right now, the son-in-law, the inexperienced son-in-law of the President of the United States. So we found out just yesterday, hours ahead of this, that there were intense negotiations under the auspices of Egyptian intelligence. And I'm emphasizing that because it's interesting that Egypt, that has a huge interest here, Egypt also shares a border with Gaza.
43:53
Egypt detests Gaza. Hamas considers it an enemy as much as Israel does. So Egypt was running this, but the mediators were Turkey and Qatar that are allies of Hamas. So this scenario is already interesting that this group of countries would come together And basically, try and shove this down Hamas's throat. We know that Hamas did sign this agreement, but Razi Hamad, the Hamas leader, already spoke today with Western media and said, no way, we're not laying down our arms.
44:28
We're not demilitarizing Gaza. We might put some of our revolvers in a, you know, he said...
44:35
Storage. I thought that word was very significant, actually. It jumped out at me about 40 minutes ago. Storage. Yes.
44:42
Now, what we know from Israel and Donald Trump said that Israel would withdraw only and like solely in pace with Hamas's disarmament. Now, Israel has not said a word. I think Prime Minister Netanyahu is taking advantage of the fact that here it's already the weekend, Friday, Saturday weekend here, so I think he's, you know, playing for time. But we did get a few statements, kind of panic statements, late last night as it became clear that something was underway and that Israel wasn't part of it.
45:17
The Prime Office of the Israeli Prime Minister put out statements saying, no way, we're not withdrawing. So what we have for now, to be blunt with you, is a big American announcement, significant American prestige put into this, and the two relevant sides saying no.
45:32
Self-awarded prestige. I know you're clear about that, but just for the avoidance of doubt, it's Donald Trump giving himself a massive pat on the back again.
45:40
And his son-in-law.
45:41
And his son-in-law. You're absolutely right, which brings us a little bit closer to the FIFA story for reasons that I will reveal shortly. So what's the best...
45:49
I'm obsessed with the FIFA story, James.
45:51
Yeah, you and me both. We all are, actually, I think. But we haven't got time to talk about that, Noga. What's the best case scenario then over the next week with regards to this...
46:02
I mean, I've said this to you before. We still have no choice but to talk about it as if Donald Trump was a normal president. And as you've just reminded us, of course, he isn't. But we still have no choice but to talk about it as if he is. So does Netanyahu have to say something at some point specifically about this or not? Yes, he does.
46:19
And what will it be? Netanyahu is in terrible shape. The polls that came out today are worse than ever for him. He's being forced into election that he hoped that somehow he'd be able to postpone.
46:33
And he just came back from a trip to the United States. He walked out of this White House meeting, you know, barely a meeting, no cameras, walking in through the back door. He walked out and said he had the best conversation of his life ever with the best friend he's ever had in Israel alone. on and on about Donald Trump. Donald Trump didn't say a word again until last night when the Israeli Prime Minister's office said Gaza didn't even come up in those meetings. It didn't take more than a few minutes for the White House to come out and say, yes, it did. Gaza was discussed.
47:05
So there's a lot of friction. Netanyahu, both for internal political reasons, his opposition is screeching. He's going to have to say something and he's going to have to respond somehow to the White House. This is a huge move. He has promised his hardcore base that Israel wouldn't withdraw one millimeter from the 70 percent of Gaza it now is occupying.
47:28
And Donald Trump is saying Hamas is going to lay down their weapons and Israel is going to leave. So this is going to have to be addressed in the next few hours in one way or another.
47:37
And there it is. I mean, we're back where we started in a way. While I have you, is there any point in me asking you what the best outcome in October's elections is for people who would really like to see peace?
47:52
You can say no.
47:53
I think...
47:56
I have to answer you in a more nuanced way. I think that the state of Israel right now is really just a little bit beyond the precipice, over an abyss.
48:10
And I think that what can give Israel a chance of being able to recreate itself, a kind of rebirth for a very broken state of Israel, will be a complete and absolute change of government. And the details of that, who would lead a different government, what direction we're going to, how much rot would still come out that we don't know about and a new government would have to address, I can't answer those questions yet. But I can tell you that it does feel like a radical change is absolutely required.
48:43
Or I think Israel will be very quickly will become something that we don't know right now.
48:49
Nogatana Polsky, we're always lucky to hear your insights and your reports live there from Jerusalem. Thank you so much. And do stay safe. It is 11 o'clock.
49:00
Three minutes after 10 for you.
49:01
Some breaking news. I was a bit distracted during the bulletin, so forgive me if this was actually just in the news bulletin, but the senior advisor to the FIFA president, Yanji Infantino, Gianni Infantino has resigned, writing, as a senior advisor to the FIFA president, a former banker and a lifelong football fan. He's referencing his history as a banker because Infantino's plan essentially involves handing over the World Cup to bankers. I cannot stand by while FIFA considers selling a stake in the World Cup. And the question I asked you at the outset about what's the link between the Gaza story and the FIFA story is this.
49:38
You heard Noga there reminding us that Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's son-in-law, is, I mean, quotes hilariously, end quotes, because there's nothing funny about any of this except in a sort of grim, gallows humour kind of way, is the negotiator in the Middle East and has also been attached to or involved in dreams of turning the Gaza Strip into some sort of luxury holiday destination. You'll remember the hideous film that Donald Trump shared on social media. Who do you think is behind the plans to sell the World Cup to, I mean, bankers, for want of a better word, financiers, whatever you want to call it?
50:19
What do you think is the name at the top of that pyramid?
50:24
And it's important to remember before I tell you that Yanni Infantino... I think I got the time wrong then. Why does no one ever correct me? Did I get the time wrong so just after 10? Anyway, it's five minutes after 11.
50:34
You have to remember that Yanni Infantino has been sucking up to Donald Trump in a way that would make even GBB's journalists look... Unbiased. Annie Infantino's sycophantic approach to Donald Trump is, I mean, simultaneously hideous and hilarious. So there's something going on between Infantino and Trump. Trump has recently suggested that Infantino could be running the United Nations, I think.
51:01
So who's behind the idea, being punted by Infantino, to flog the World Cup to financiers who would want it in order to make money out of it? Money that currently, and this is not an entirely corruption-free pipeline, but currently makes its way to international football associations. Yeah, it's Jared Kushner's brother.
51:24
It's Joshua Kushner.
51:27
So if you were to construct a thesis alleging that Trump's interests in any issue are always driven by the prospect of enrichment for his closest circle and or himself... You could potentially put both the Gaza story today and the FIFA story yesterday and ongoing, of course, with this resignation in the case for the prosecution.
51:56
It is literally his son-in-law's brother who is behind the plan to carve up the World Cup and flog it to...
52:03
uh financiers hoping to make an enormous profit out of it while his actual son-in-law is leading negotiations in the middle he's the property developer um having previously either expressed or been attached to um uh hopes to turn the gaza strip into some sort of holiday destiny i mean you couldn't make it up could you you couldn't make it up um And I'm not. Seven minutes after 11 is the time. I think that we are going, I don't know what to do next, to be honest with you.
52:36
I mean, there are a few stories around. I think that we've exhausted your interest in the Gaza story. There's not a lot you can say about it. I think we're moving rapidly towards something pretty close to consensus that what is going on now is utterly unconscionable. And the only people that can really stop it are Benjamin Netanyahu's government, and they don't want to.
52:59
That, I think, accounts for pretty much 100% of the opinion of unbiased, informed people. Unfortunately, much of the discourse is still dominated by deeply ill-informed or misinformed and incredibly biased people. There's not a lot that I can do about that except keep chipping away with the truth.
53:20
But I'll keep you up to date with any announcements or developments in that story. Quite a lot of variations in Fantino's name. Sycophantino, that was the one I kept trying to remind myself to use because it's the funniest. But we've also got Psychopath Fantino, which is a bit clumsier and a little bit harder to say. I think I'll stick with Sycophantino. But I don't know what the phone-in is there. I don't personally think that there is one. So I'm going to turn you back to a subject that I actually really like. I find it really fascinating. I don't know how you see yourself in relation to authority.
53:55
It's quite often the case that people who like to think of themselves as rebellious or even anti-establishment or possibly anti-authoritarian are nothing of the sort. Nigel Farage would be a classic example of this, wandering around the place claiming to be anti-establishment while he spent his entire life with his little face squished up against the sweet shop shop. window, begging, begging to be let inside. And then when they let him inside, he started moaning about the quality of the suites and claiming that he wasn't being allowed the really, really nice ones.
54:27
And, you know, he dresses like a Dulwich College day boy's idea of what the landed gentry looked like. He turns up at fox hunts and the like and claims to be anti-establishment after... Well, I'm told, and I could be wrong, we've tried desperately to find anyone who can support Farage's claims that he gave up a lucrative career in the city rather than that the city... gave up on Nigel Farage. But he, you know, goes from public school to the city to career politician and claims that he's anti-establishment while transferring £5 million in secret from a foreign-based billionaire and, of course, as yet undefined or unconfirmed contributions from a bloke who is a member of an aristocratic family.
55:08
I think it was Richard Tyson who, in the same tweet, did he claim that... Did he establish his own anti-establishment credentials and the aristocratic heritage of the kid that calls Nigel Farage daddy, despite the fact that Nigel Farage, as far as we're aware, is not his daddy? And can he be an anti-establishment aristocrat? There it is. I mean, you can have an anti-establishment aristocrat. They look a lot like Tony Benn or Viscount Stansgate, as he would have been known if he hadn't surrendered his title. So an anti-establishment aristocrat, historically, is not going to be right-wing.
55:43
Unless they are... No, I can't think of anything. So you want to find an anti-establishment aristocrat, they are not funneling money into Nigel Farage's party coffers, or quite possibly his private bank accounts as well, because it might be that Christopher Harbourn is the only one we know about, and it turns out that actually loads of billionaires have been giving him money in the hope of... policies that coincidentally and miraculously further enrich them in the event of him becoming prime minister. I know if we are to find out about it, it won't be because he decides to tell us. And it's also perfectly possible that Christopher Harbourn is the only foreign-based billionaire to have secretly funneled money into Nigel Farage's private bank account.
56:19
We may never know. We may never prove it. I don't know. Can you prove a negative? But anyway, I think of myself as being quite anti...
56:30
I think of myself as being quite rebellious. My self-image is, you know, I will speak up against the bosses or against the government or whatever it may be. But I don't know that I am, actually. And I'll speak up for what I believe to be true. But I want to focus your attention. So think about what you think you are. Do you think you are?
56:55
I don't mean bolshie.
56:57
I don't mean like a sort of eternal teenager and you're told what none of us really like being told what to do. Some people do like being told what to do, actually. That's a silly thing for me to say because it makes life much less complicated. And, of course, a lot of the most awful things that have ever happened in the history of humanity have happened because of the people who quite like being told what to do without having to waste any energy thinking about things or applying morality to a scenario or being curious.
57:21
But if you think of yourself as being curious I mean, the man. Who do you think of when I say the man? We're sticking it to the man.
57:31
We're sticking it to the man. Who are you thinking? It's bosses, suits, men in suits, bosses. I don't know. But I would always in life like to think of myself as being...
57:44
As being a rebel.
57:47
A rebel without applause. I'd like to think... On a scale of 1 to 10, don't text me. You will, though. How ridiculous am I sounding at the moment? I've always liked to think of myself as a bit of a rebel.
57:59
How ridiculous am I?
58:00
Am I sounding ridiculous?
58:03
One of the most right-wing people I've ever met.
58:06
I can't tell you this story. It wouldn't be fair. You'll have to ask me in private.
58:11
Everyone thinks they're a bit of a rebel, no? Do you think you're a bit of a rebel?
58:17
Do you think you'd stick up?
58:19
What would you do in the... I mean, would you... You know, when the really bad stuff starts happening, would you hide someone in your attic? Would you risk your own life to protect what you believe in?
58:31
I don't know. That's not the phone-in. Maybe you could do that another day.
58:36
You're going to be a tiny little bit surprised when I introduce the phone-in because I've set it up in quite serious terms on a subject that is not that serious. But...
58:47
I don't know that if I... I've got this weird attitude to work-based authority, right?
58:55
I've got this... And this is a huge difference between my generation, which is, I think, Generation X, and following generations. Most obviously, I suppose, Generation Z and the millennials. If you're in Generation Y, do you feel really left out? No one ever talks about you, do they? Is there a Generation Y? Is there a Generation Y? So I'm X, you're Z. Are you Z or you're a millennial?
59:21
But Z is a thing, right? We talk about Generation Z. Generation Z, if you've got to be all transatlantic about it. Do we ever talk about Generation Y? Did we skip Y? If so, why? I don't know. Anyway, I think this is a huge difference between Generation X and subsequent generations.
59:41
And it's about what your, in your monologue, says this text, that you are a rebel without a pause. I got a brilliant text yesterday that I forgot to read out. It was after I said that, you know, back in the day, Brentford, where I live in London, was best known for its gas works, which were flipping huge and right on the banks of the River Thames. And I forgot who sent it in, which wasn't fair of me, because it made me really, really chuckle during the break. And then I completely forgot about it. Someone sent in and said, now, these days, Brentford is best known for its gas bag. which I took as an enormous compliment.
60:11
But anyway, that's also quite good. In your monologues, writes Richard, you're a rebel without a pause. Do you know, it might have been Richard who sent in yesterday's joke as well about gas bags. So carry on, Richard. We're loving your work. Generation Y are millennials. I'm sorry, I got a bit mixed up there. Of course they are. Generation Y are millennials. Generation Z, born after 2013. So yeah, so the millennials... and the Generation Z. What is the... Go on, have a get... Shall I take a break? I haven't told you what the topic is yet, but I've been around so many houses that I could probably get a job on one of those daytime TV property programmes.
60:46
Yeah, go on, let's take a little break. I'll be back in a sec.
60:50
17 minutes after 11 is the time.
60:53
I'm talking about working from home.
60:57
There's all that stuff about what would you do in the event of the stormtroopers turning up to carry away your neighbours? Would you hide your neighbours in your attic? Are you a rebel? Do you think of yourself as being anti-establishment? What on earth is this topic going to be about? It's going to be about something really juicy, isn't it, James?
61:14
So Santander, the bank...
61:17
as opposed to Santander, the genius. Santander have been taken over by another bank, by TSB, or is it the other way around?
61:31
It is, I think it is actually the other way around. So TSB staff are preparing to take legal action against plans to force them to come to the office three days a week.
61:43
And I find this story fascinating for what I think is a largely generational divide. You know, when we talk about the younger generation not engaging in education, employment or training, and as Andy Burnham fully appreciates, it's the single most important issue of our age.
62:00
There's some stories today or one story today about young carers. I said to you, there's no way there are a million kids sitting at home twiddling their thumbs, messing around on their Playstations and laughing at taxpayers for subsidizing their existences. Some of these kids will have fallen through cracks. Some of these kids will be terrified of leaving the house. Some of these kids will be crippled by anxiety and other mental health problems. Some of these kids just don't know what to do. Some of these kids have tried things. to engage with the world around them and failed. I mean, the different answers to why you are not in education, employment or training would number almost as many as the people who are not in education, employment or training.
62:36
And today we get yet more proof of that thesis with the news. There are about 100,000 young adult care. Well, I beg your pardon, about 300,000 people aged 16 to 24 are informal carers. And a huge number of them are going to not be, about a quarter of them, I think, are going to not be in education, employment or training. So you've got just shy of 100,000 on that list.
63:02
that we can immediately take off the suspicion list. Oh, they sound a bit dodgy. They're swinging the lead. They're scroungers. They're not. They're looking after elderly people. They're looking after older relatives that have inadequate state-supplied care.
63:18
So I'm looking at this story about working from home, about TSB staff preparing to take legal action against plans to force them to come to the office three days a week. And I'm reflecting on the fact, the reason I mentioned NEATS.
63:34
Is that when I was young, when I was first in the workplace, I thought you had to do pretty much whatever your boss asked you to do. Right?
63:46
It could be that my job was a bit weird. My friend Henry once had to walk up and down the King's Road wearing stiletto heels.
63:53
Because... There was some story, probably thinking back, it would be a fashion week story, and a man had appeared on the catwalk wearing stiletto heels, so the picture editor thought it would be a good idea to send out a young reporter in stiletto heels to walk up and down the King's Road.
64:12
Another journalist who was on the Daily Star at the time, who has gone on to be an incredibly successful film director, he made the film about kneecap. the irish rappers um he was sent out in a burka he was sent and i remember the story told because he was quite a smoker he taped a packet of marlborough lights to his bicep so that he could um while walking up and down in a full burka and face covering he could stop off every now and then for a crafty smoke so these and and i i don't know um I think he looked back on that with a degree of embarrassment, but I don't think he realized at the time that he should never have been asked to do that any more than...
64:54
I mean, basically, at the time, we were desperate to get our faces in the paper, to get our names in the paper. We were desperate for a byline. I did one. God, I did one when... Yeah, this was a bit embarrassing, actually. Have you ever seen those things advertised in the back of the paper where they say that you'll lose weight by sticking things to your body and they'll do little electrical pulses? Have you ever seen that?
65:16
Have you seen that? I think they haven't really been around for a while. I don't recently. And anyway, I did a before and after on that. And between you and me, I'd forgotten to do it every night. And I didn't get many bylines at the time because I was on the gossip column and the gossip column doesn't have bylines. So I stuck my hand up and said, oh, I'll do that. And then I went home and I put them on. It's slightly uncomfortable, a bit twingy. And then I forgot all about it for a couple of weeks when the picture editor came around and said, should we do the after picture now? So they did a before picture of me with these things stuck to my body. And my moobs in those days were sadly still, I mean, I think they were in evidence, but they were quite early, early days.
65:54
And then they came back a month later, I think, and took another picture of me. And if anything, I'd put on a few pounds since I'd started the diet thing. So I said yes to that. I would not say yes to that now.
66:07
You know, if you want to see my moves, you can pay like everybody else does. I wouldn't say there were things I would say yes to. But I felt that in the workplace that And I'd had a tricky time getting into journalism, as in I didn't get into it until a little bit later than scheduled and planned, and I was beginning to give up on it and think about what else I was going to do. When I was in retail, if the boss said, can you drop this off at a hotel?
66:37
on your way home, even though I wouldn't be on the clock when I went, you know, I'd hop off the tube, I'd get on it at Piccadilly Circus, someone's hotel was in Knightsbridge, I'd leave the shop at six o'clock, I'd get off at Knightsbridge, drop it off at the park tower, not get paid for that, I never minded, I always thought, yeah, show willing, do what the boss wants, that's how you get ahead in life.
66:58
That was what I was actually taught, I think. Dad used to say to me when I were really early doors, getting shifts or work experience on newspapers, and I'd ring him up and I'd say, I'm not doing anything, Dad. I'm not doing anything. They're not asking me to do anything. And Dad would say, looking back, probably more out of reassurance than anything else, he'd say, you're there in case they need you, son.
67:20
And newspapers in those days were very well staffed, hard though that is to believe these days. You're there in case they need you, son. And so you'd think, any opportunity, put your hand up, I'll do that. So this is why I don't think I'm actually much of a rebel when I stop to think about it, because in the workplace, I've always pretty much done what I'm told.
67:38
It's probably one of the reasons I love this job so much, because no one ever tells me what to do.
67:44
I hope I haven't jinxed it.
67:48
So I...
67:50
I come at these stories about working from home really conflicted because I kind of think it's your boss who makes the decision of where you work, not you.
68:04
And yet I know looking back on lockdown, an awful lot of the...
68:10
weight that was being put behind anti-working from home came from the newspapers, who of course weren't being sold. So one of the reasons why Boris Johnson was so anti-working from home was because he is in thrall to his editors and colleagues on newspapers. And a little thing about working from home is you don't buy a newspaper on your way into work. The Evening Standard in London... London has never... I have to do it myself now. Keith's on a break. The Evening Standard in London has never... London has never...
68:39
recovered. Partly because it is owned as a sort of vanity project by that son of a KGB spy that Boris Johnson put in the House of Lords. And partly, through no fault of its own, it got absolutely kebabbed by lockdown. Because the habit of picking one up, and it was free I think by then, just disappears if you're not doing the commute.
68:59
So I kind of was on the side of the working from homers during lockdown on the grounds that it made you feel safer and it didn't really impact upon your productivity, as all of the early research showed. Do you remember the call we took from an office manager in about the third or fourth week of lockdown who said they've made me redundant? I said, what? He said, they've made me redundant. I was the office manager. I'm the only one who can't work from home. We've all been working home for a month. Productivity's gone up. So the bosses have decided that we're never moving back into the office. Everybody's working from home.
69:30
He said, I think they forgot about me.
69:32
I'm the office manager. You can't do that from home, James, any more than you can drive a train. Quite a lot of the people who were being very dishonest about working from home suddenly discovered this enormous affection for train drivers during lockdown. Rather than admitting that they were essentially doing the bidding of the newspaper owners by parroting the lines from the newspapers about why nobody should be able to work from home, they'd say things like, well, train drive, won't somebody think of the train drivers? But of course, when the train drivers ask us to think of them when they're undertaking industrial action, because these people are essentially doing the bidding of the newspaper owners, they're usually the first to say, we should, down with all train drivers, down with all train drivers.
70:12
This is an old-fashioned phone-in, all right? I've set it up in a rather roundabout and unlikely fashion.
70:18
And it has a hinge, if you like, or a peg. It is because TSB staff are preparing to take legal action against their new bosses because when they worked for TSB, they were allowed to work from home. And now they work for Santander, they are being told that they have to come into the office for three days a week. So they'll only be allowed to homework once. for two days a week. At the moment, some of them are homeworking for five days a week or four days a week.
70:49
There will be things in place like childcare arrangements and medical scenarios and family reasons. But that said, it's probably fair to say that these people were working in the office five to ten years ago or the people doing their job were working in the office five or ten years ago.
71:11
I want you to answer this question. I want you to answer it honestly.
71:15
And you can either bring personal experience into it or you can bring philosophy into it, which is essentially what I'm doing.
71:21
Who should decide where you work?
71:25
If the playing field is level, right?
71:29
As in it is not in any way arguable that there's going to be a measurable difference in your productivity whether you're at work or at home. Whether you're at work at work or at work at home.
71:42
Who should actually decide? Because I am 75% employer on this even though I'm normally on the side of the... Well, I think I'm on the side of the workers, right, in life. So if we were working together and the boss was being a wally, I would stand up and say so. Even when I was relatively junior in organisations, I'd say, you can't do that or you can't talk to her like that. Or if you've got a problem with this, take it up with me. Don't take it up with someone more junior. I would be on the side of the workers in the workplace.
72:12
Big believer in trade unions. But if you say to me, who decides where you work?
72:19
You or your boss...
72:22
I think it's the boss's charge. The boss is paying your wages, right?
72:26
The boss is in charge of you. The boss owns you for the eight. No, is that?
72:33
Does this stick in your millennial craw?
72:36
Is it an age thing, this?
72:38
They give you money for you, right?
72:42
Oh, three, four, five, six, oh, six, oh, nine, seven, three. I think young people will disagree with me. I think millennials and generation Zs will disagree with me. I think you, and I think I want to be more like you. I want my children to be like you. I don't want them to think that their boss owns them for eight hours a day. It has to be a relationship. It has to be two-way traffic.
73:03
But I'm not even convincing myself.
73:07
I'm not even convincing myself.
73:09
I think, given the size of my audience, if I told the boss that I wanted to work from home, then probably these days they'd set up a studio in my back garden and I'd be able to work from home. But I don't want to, so we'll never find out.
73:19
There's a lot going on here.
73:21
You can bring any dimension or angle to it if you want. But, and also if you're a boss, tell me I'm an idiot. Or tell me I'm absolutely right. And you wish you had more people on your payroll like me who fully understand that when you say jump, I say, how high?
73:35
Oh, three, four, five, six, oh, six, oh, nine, seven, three. I'm embarrassed by what I just said.
73:41
I am, I was raised in a way, and my early experiences in the workplace were such that I look upon the transaction that takes place when you give me a wage as being one that allows you to tell me what to do. I'm not going to walk up and down King's Road in stiletto heels or march around London in a burka, for example.
73:58
Why is everyone thinking of Henry Riley at this point? Why is everyone thinking that sounds like the sort of thing Henry Riley might do on The Breakfast Show?
74:06
But Henry is brilliant at what he does. As you know, he's brilliant at everything, Henry. It's driving me crazy, actually, the amount of people wasting their time sending compliments for Henry Riley into my show when he's sitting in the studio. But he's a very good example of someone who is getting ahead by doing everything, which is a little bit what I was like when I was younger.
74:28
So if the boss says you're coming into the office, you say, yeah, right you are, boss. Yes, sir. No, sir. Three bags full, sir.
74:35
Unless you're working for TSB, in which case you say, right, we're taking you to court.
74:40
We want to work from home. We want to carry on working from home. 0345 6060 973. It's a horrible philosophy, James, says Jamie. No boss ever owned me, and I'm older than you. Well, they did.
74:54
Mate, they just did. You might not like it, but they give you money. You give them hours of your life, no? And during those hours of your life, you do what you're told as long as it's legal, I think.
75:06
I like these topics because you know you can trust me. I got it a bit wrong yesterday. Well, I meant what I said yesterday, but it's hard to provide context sometimes. I don't... When I was talking about how, listen, this is awful. We've got to do something about the extreme heat. But at the same time, an awful lot of people are acknowledging the fact that their home life feels like a holiday now sometimes because of the heat. But so I've got these words coming out of my mouth that I really mean. But as I say them to you, I feel like I'm curdling inside.
75:39
What do you think? Who owns who? Who decides where you work? You or the person paying your wages? 03456060973 is the number you need. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines.
75:52
I don't think Generation Alpha are going to have much to say about this, given that the oldest member of Generation Alpha is currently 13. OK, so we can leave them out of it.
76:01
You write out, you point out quite correctly, I probably have to get over the idea that the millennials are some sort of youthful cohort, given that you could be 45 if you're a millennial. But you'd still be younger than me as a member of Generation X. So 1965 to 1980, Generation X, I think you will be much more likely to think that the boss decides whether you work at home or work at work. millennial born between 1981 and 1996 you're probably wobbling generation z born between 1997 and 2012 you're absolutely adamant that you should be deciding where you work if it can be demonstrated that it makes no absolute difference to your productivity discuss um i've got something a little bit weird i know what you're thinking is he ever going to shut up and take a call even the producer is thinking that And the switchboard is full.
76:51
Actually, that's not true. Line two has just been vacated. So you can grab line two if you're really quick. So it's not as if I'm doing it to cover up the fact that no one's ringing me, as some presenters on other radio stations have been known to do. Do you know, on some radio stations, they even phone people who've texted in and beg them to come on the programme and pretend that they've just rung in. I find that almost impossible to believe, but apparently that goes on at other radio stations.
77:18
Some days I just feel...
77:20
that i could talk forever do you ever get that i mean i'm in the right job aren't i you gotta be honest but some days it doesn't happen very often but you've probably guessed that it's happening now i think i could talk forever i think we could do some sort of charity thing for make some noise how long can james talk for no sleep no food i just have a slurp of tea or a quick bite of sausage roll my own producer has written on the screen god help us all which is, I think, probably speaking for many.
77:51
So don't worry, I'm not doing it now. Leroy's in rice slip. Leroy, make it snappy, mate. I've got a lot to say.
77:57
Yeah, I was clean-shaven when you started. LAUGHTER
78:01
Anyway, where was I? Go on. I think it's the boss who decides without a doubt. This is the guy who you go to and you tell him everything he wants to hear. You dress up, you smile, you say that you'll clean the toilet if necessary because you really want the job. And then all of a sudden you're saying, oh, well, no, I can't actually come in. Like, you know, don't be ridiculous. I think that's an appalling thing. way, and it's really silly. I'm surprised it's even a conversation, to be honest with you. The other thing that I literally do despair at, and I work with NEATS, I work in schools and so on and so forth, is that the kids are missing out on the interaction, the banter or the bans, as you said, I think, yesterday, that people have in the office, how to take the mick out of each other, how to have fun, how to, you know, go out and everyone goes out on a Friday and you have a drink in a local pub and you have a chat.
78:53
That is We are just, as a species, it makes me so sad.
78:59
There are two conversations here. Go on. Aren't there? Because, I mean, the pros and cons of homeworking, that's an interesting conversation. And I think my position on this has shifted since lockdown. And I do think that you miss out on something by not... I mean, I wouldn't have met my wife if we were all working from home on the Daily Express back in the late... No, well, for me... Yeah. So I do buy that. But the world changes and you make connections elsewhere.
79:29
And obviously the needs that we worry about almost every day at the moment are not making their connections elsewhere. So yes, but that's not really what we're talking about today. It's the very specific question of who decides where you work with no measurable difference in productivity or efficiency. And you're like me, which makes me think, Leroy, that you're aged between 45 and 60.
79:54
I'm, yeah, you're spot on. I'm 57.
79:56
Yeah.
79:57
Yes. I work with young people.
79:59
No, I know you do.
80:00
I know you do.
80:02
But I don't want them to think, I mean, I use the word own, which is a terror. I mean, I didn't mean you own the person. I just mean you own those hours. You own their activity for those hours.
80:12
Yeah.
80:12
And that, I mean, even as I say the words, I curdle a bit because I do mean it, but I kind of envy the kids who don't think that they are property, as it were, of employers. Yeah. And yet there it is. You do it. You're right. You say you're the boss. You do what you want. You're giving me money.
80:29
Yeah.
80:29
I'll do what you want within reason or within legal parameters. Thanks, man. 11.30. You can go and have a shave now, Leroy.
80:37
It's 11.39. I hope my bosses aren't listening. Goodness knows what they'll ask me to do at the end of the program as a consequence of me setting out this particular store. But I'm not really. No, let's just really confine it to where you are.
80:49
There are things I'd say no to. There are things I would not countenance. I'm not going to do things. But when I was young, starting out, I would have said yes to things that I wouldn't say yes to now. But what we're looking at now, right now, is the straightforward question of who decides. Should the employer be able to lay down the law? Should they be able to absolutely lay down the law on you coming to work when you would much rather and even have previously done all of your work from home?
81:20
Ben's in Wolverhampton. Ben, what do you think?
81:22
Hiya, James. Yeah, I'm a full-time working from home guy.
81:27
I've been working from home for three years full-time in my office. We're a video game developer, so it's very remote.
81:34
We don't have an actual in-person office. I have done in-person office work in different studios. My biggest thing is that the major thing that I noticed when I worked at a studio before was the travel time. I lost so much time traveling to and from my office.
81:50
You're doing pros and cons. I'm doing the philosophy. You're doing the pros and cons.
81:54
Yeah, yeah.
81:56
So if you, I mean, do you work for yourself or do you work for, do you have an employer?
82:00
Yes, I have an employer.
82:01
Right, so if they announce tomorrow, right, we're changing everything. We're all working in the office. We're going to get, let me find somewhere quite pleasant near Wolverhampton. We're all moving to Willinghall in the morning. We've got a lovely new building in Willinghall and I want you in there at least three days a week, Ben. What does Ben say?
82:17
Well, see, that's the thing. See, it doesn't actually make sense for industries like my own.
82:21
No, you're doing pros and cons. You're doing pros and cons. I'm doing the philosophy. They've ordered you. They want you in Willinghall at 10 o'clock Monday morning. What are you going to do?
82:30
I probably would. I'm not going to lie. I probably would.
82:34
Because deep down you know it's their call, not yours.
82:37
Well, it's also because I actually really like my job.
82:39
Yeah, that's probably a factor as well.
82:41
And I think a lot of people, they don't really, like especially with TSB, right, I can't speak for them. But I'm going to assume that because they're in an office, they may be answering calls. It's not the best job. It's not the best work. And they don't get time at home. They barely get enough time to get home, eat dinner, go to bed. So that's, you know, it's not a good job, but that's all they've got sometimes.
83:01
Maybe I'm being an idiot, actually, and insisting that we don't bring pros and cons into it.
83:07
Yeah, I mean, you know, you don't have to call me an idiot, but you can if you want, because of course it is going to be about. So the reason why TSB or Santander actually are being unreasonable is because the benefits of working from home are so big and so obvious. And to strip people of them is just cruel and unnecessary.
83:26
Exactly. I would say that, like, you know, there's been so many studies come out that say that productivity is actually higher at home. I can speak to myself and say 100% it's higher. When I was in office, and this isn't just a slight to my work ethic, but when I was in office, you fall into chats, you walk around, you chat to your mates. But when you're at home, you are so much more focused, I find.
83:44
Yeah, I mean, we are walking a tightrope between the philosophy of it, or the ethics of it, in fact, which is a branch of philosophy, and the simple pros and cons of it. It's a pretty stark contrast. TSB staff were allowed to work entirely from home. And you're right, they're almost certain to be doing... sort of call centre, customer service type roles, aren't they? Whereas Santander have flexible work, literally require all staff to work from the office for at least three days a week as part of rules they introduced in 2024. Now the rules, the reason why I'm being an idiot for insisting that we don't bring pros and cons into it, the rules may be a consequence of the pros and cons.
84:20
They may have concluded in 2024 that the business was better when people were coming into the office than it was when they were working from home. In which case, when they say to you, I'm terribly sorry, you've had a wonderful time of it for the last few years, but those days are over. And they say, I've got childcare issues. I've got long commutes.
84:38
You know, my cost of living will be harder if you make me come to work and back every day. The boss, the employer is entitled to turn around and say, tough. That's how I want it. If you don't like it, you can get a job somewhere else.
84:50
Yeah. I would like to say, actually, that's a good point you said about childcare, because I met my wife thanks to my working from home situation. Oh, really? And now we're expecting our first child. Wow.
84:59
How did that happen? What did she do? Was she an Avon lady?
85:03
No, no. We just got chatting on like a meet-up online. Oh, lovely. Yeah, so we're expecting our first child now. And genuinely, if I wasn't working from home, we would not be able to have a child. She'd be in the office. You know, childcare costs us so much these days. It's so hard to get into any sort of like nursery. So because I'm at home, I will be able to look after our baby.
85:26
Yeah, I think probably it is a mistake to exclude the pros and cons from this conversation because the argument that Santander are being unreasonable hinges upon things like the things that Ben has just told us. Ben, while I've got you, what kind of game are you working on at the moment?
85:42
Oh, I can't say it right now. Yes, you can.
85:43
No one's listening. Go on.
85:44
Give me a clue. It's an actual adventure. I'll say that.
85:48
Is it part of a franchise? Would I know any of the names involved?
85:51
No, a brand new franchise. Is it really? Very exciting.
85:54
What does your day involve? Don't tell me any more that would embarrass you, but I know nothing about... When I was about... How old are you now?
86:00
I'm turning 30 in November.
86:02
Yeah, you see, there it is. I mean, that fits with my generational approach to this question in general. But when I was about 12 or 13, I chose a path in life that I sometimes regret. I was a very, very early adopter of video games. Not just playing them, but I used to write... They used to print, can you believe this, in magazines. They used to print...
86:25
I suppose it wasn't even code. It was basic that you were using and you had to go through it So there'd be like four pages of a magazine and you type it all in on the spectrums little rubber keyed keyboard and Obviously you'd make a mistake and you'd have to go through it all again You'd do it for days and at the end of it you'd get a really basic binary game And I looked into it and I thought about should I go into computer games as a career I even set up a little video games magazine when I was at boarding school and And I didn't do it. And that's one of the big paths not taken for me.
86:55
So just what does your day involve? Are you tweaking things? What does it mean when you say, I mean, because I just finished First Light. Have you played First Light yet?
87:06
Oh, yes. First Light's fantastic.
87:07
I finished that and one of my daughters came into the room as I was as the credits were rolling and We sat there. It's a good grief. I mean, it's bigger than a film now the credits at the end If you're working from home and you're doing your job What what is your job and how are you managed?
87:27
I'm an animator, so I'm making the move. But yeah, we just, you know, we sync up on a daily basis. We've got producers, we've got all sorts. We're only a small studio, there's about 20 of us. But I've worked at like 700-man studios before that. I'm so jealous.
87:44
I know, you're doing a great job.
87:45
No, I love my job.
87:46
I couldn't really do both, could I? But I mean, that is so exciting. Do you know the only thing that could make your job better? What's that? If you were based in Willinghall.
87:56
It's 11.47. Thank you, Ben.
87:59
10 to 12 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. My rule is, right, Scott, I never ask anyone to do anything that I wouldn't do. Although, having said that, I'm always cleaning the toilet at the shop because I wouldn't ask anyone else to do that. What a mug I must be.
88:14
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it doesn't necessarily address the question of...
88:21
Who decides where you work, you or the boss? If you're just tuning in, you missed an absolute legend of an introduction on this. It lasted about an hour and a half. If you've just tuned in, TSB staff are taking legal action against their new employers because their bank has been taken over by Santander because they've been working from home for five days a week and Santander say they have to come into the office for three days a week. In a way, I'm asking whose side you're on. Simon's in Dover. Simon, what do you think?
88:48
Hi, James. First time caller. A little bit nervous. It's only me. Thanks for having me on.
88:52
You're very welcome. I love it when you bring up the term, you know, the philosophical point of view. So if we look at it rather than, because I've studied philosophy, a little less sort of wishy-washy and say, well, let's look at the ethics of it.
89:05
Yes.
89:05
So when you get a job, you sign a contract. Yes. So obviously the TSB people won't be going to Santander and going to Cork, some kind of... it's fair it's not fair kind of sort of whingy approach to it they'll be looking at the contracts and saying are there legal points here where santander have effectively changed the contract of employment i don't think you're right i don't think no i mean the the union it's the tbu union um that's challenging the mandate through an employment tribunal
89:37
The Times reported yesterday they've raised concerns that some employees would be unable to change their arrangements for family or medical reasons. If it was a straight breach of contract, I think it would be open and shut, wouldn't it? If your contract said you decide where you work and then they turned up and said, no, you don't, then it would be a very different proposition.
89:55
Well, I think the contracts probably will say the power of your employer to determine where you work and they'll refer to various policies. And it's the policies that then become a bit of a vagary to me because your contract says you'll do this, that and the other and you will follow all the latest policies. But that enables the organisation sometimes to change their policies. And then, as you've just said, the question is, is a change of policy effectively a change of contract? So let me give you an example.
90:25
So it's a grey area, essentially, which is why the lawyers will get paid.
90:29
That's why the lawyers are going to get paid. Exactly. So if you take an example, if you were hired by a TSB that work from home, you may have decided that you would take a potentially lower wage and TSB may have decided accepted you know put out job specs with lower pay because you don't have to pay the commute costs and you get the work-life balance so then if you've got that and you take on that role then ethically if they change that you've got you're suddenly going to be faced with extra costs that you weren't at the time you were that feels unfair right And that is unfair, but it may not still be reflected in the contract.
91:08
And that's probably where the sort of philosophical point comes is, do you follow the letter of the contract, in which case you can vote with your feet? You know, the contract says the boss gets to decide. That's what the policy is. Even if you took it on as a full-time, you vote with your feet, you resign. The little bit of cynical in me says these kinds of things occur in mergers and acquisitions.
91:33
To accelerate the voluntary redundancy process. Exactly right.
91:37
Yeah, I see where you went there. They need to thin it out a bit. Very rarely do you see the mergers... on a on a growth perspective especially with banks so they'll be looking to consolidate in certain areas and if they can shake out some people uh off the back of this and and no doubt they've been caught by surprise with this court action to try and stop that happening i mean you're being very detailed and uh and evidence driven let me tempt you let me tempt you away from that okay what's your gut instinct a straight up question who decides where you work you or your boss I believe the boss does.
92:10
Yeah, I do too. And that means you're aged between 45 and 60. That is correct. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?
92:17
Yeah. I don't, by the way, necessarily think that while they have the rights, that that is a good thing. No, that's pros and cons.
92:23
Exactly.
92:24
I've worked for quite a few people. And one of the worst things that I've experienced in Back to the Office three days a week... It's just weird. And then you get back on the train and go home again.
92:48
And that is the reality I've had in the last two years at various places, that you find yourself meeting your obligation, but it is an entirely pointless journey.
92:59
And so you get to get smart. You have to sort of set up meetings and coordinate with your teams and make that time in the office valuable.
93:06
Yeah, I mean, that's a different phoning, actually. Why would bosses want to do this when it has such a deleterious impact on their employees' lives? And there will be answers to that question, of course. It's not rhetorical. They'd say, well, because from our point of view, the pros outweigh the cons, and the cons are going to be sucked up by the staff, whereas the pros are to the benefit of the business. But, well, great call. Thank you, Simon. I don't know what you were nervous about. It was a sparkling debut. I look forward to your sophomore call to the programme. 11.56 is the time. Stephen is in Walthamstow. Stephen, who decides?
93:36
The boss, certainly.
93:37
How old are you?
93:39
I am 48.
93:41
Can we squeeze in a couple of younger callers before we go? Because this is just ridiculous. I'm just being proved right about everything again. Carry on, Stephen.
93:48
Yeah, I mean, I think your previous call has taken the wind out of my sails. He said a lot of things that I've been thinking. The employer absolutely has the right to decide. But I know colleagues that I work with right now that have decided to live a lot further away from our office. Yeah. You know, it's massively changed their cost of living. It's massively changed their arrangements of their life. And then we do exactly, you know, as, again, as your previous caller said, you go into the office and then you video call people from the office.
94:18
Well, why are we all subscribing to the idea that it's right for the boss to have this power when we're then coming up with examples as to why the boss shouldn't exercise it?
94:27
i mean what if your colleagues who've moved miles away and what if your company got bought tomorrow and the new owner said i'm terribly sorry i appreciate that you've moved to loch ness in order to enjoy a better quality of life but i need you back in the office in walthamstow on monday morning at 10 o'clock whose side would you be on then i mean i think that's an unreasonable how dare you question the parameters how dare you question the parameters of my example whose side would you be on
94:53
Oh, in that case, I'm certainly on the employee side. Yeah, you see? You see? Yeah. I just, I mean, I think it's moving goalposts, right? Well, that's what they'll be arguing.
95:04
That's what the TSB staff will be arguing. They'll be saying, we have the goalposts in place on our pitch, and you've come in and bought the pitch, and now you're moving the goalposts. To go from five days a week at home to three days a week in the office, they could be living in Loch Ness. They might, you know, I mean, it's unlikely, I grant you, it's a long way from Walthamstow, but the point stands...
95:23
I mean, I do have a colleague who lives in somewhere almost that remote. I'm not going to name names or names.
95:29
No, you can if you want. No one will notice, but I take your point. So what happens? New boss tomorrow says you've got to come in the office 10 o'clock Monday morning. Three days. Three days a week from now on.
95:38
Well, generally what happens is that people just don't obey the rules.
95:41
That's what happens in my office. Not on my watch, mate. Not under my glorious rule. You'd be out on your ear. Well, I'm in charge.
95:48
You're in the office three days a week.
95:50
So you've talked yourself out of your own position. You're now on the side of the workers.
95:55
I've always been on the side of the workers, James. You and me both, Stephen.
95:58
Power to the people! It's coming up to 11.59. I'm squeezing a 24-year-old, I think. Jake's in Didsbury. Didsbury? What did I know in Didsbury? Anyway, carry on, Jake. What do you reckon?
96:09
I'm on my boss's side.
96:12
There you go.
96:13
There's a young man you want on the payroll. Carry on, Jake.
96:16
I just believe that there's someone always better that could replace you. Everyone could just be a number. And if I'm not willing to do my part, then what's the point in employing me?
96:25
Yeah.
96:26
Yeah. And that would involve, I mean, even if you thought he was an idiot for insisting that you come into work, because it's obviously better for you not to, and you get more work done and you're a happier employee. If that's what he wants or she wants, that's what you do.
96:40
Exactly. I mean, I live in Scarborough, which is quite a way from where I'm working. And I've been up in Devon. I've been in Cornwall all week doing my job for my boss, who's short on engineers. And I've got no qualms with doing that. I signed up to a role.
96:56
Yeah, that's different, though. That's different. What if you had signed up to a very different role and your boss sold the company? And I appreciate that the kind of engineering you do is not a job you can do from home. So I need you to come on a journey of the imagination with me, Jake. You were desk-based and you were working from home for, let's say, if you're 24, so for the last four years...
97:20
He sells the business, new owners come in and say, right, you need to be in the office.
97:25
Then whose side are you on?
97:26
I'd agree. Right, okay. Why should I choose where I work if I've been employed to do a job? It's my boss's. my boss's stance to make you do that job.
97:37
Yeah, and I now want to argue with you, despite the fact that you're perfectly and clearly articulating the position that I held exactly one hour ago. And there was me giving Steve a bit of a tickle for suggesting that he talked himself out of his own position. I kind of... You'd want Jake on the payroll because he's going to do what you want, but would you also be saying, mate...
97:56
Get off your knees. Stop being such a serf. Stop doffing the carpenter. I don't know is the short answer to this. I'm personally conflicted by it, which is why I envy the certainty, whichever side of the argument you're on, because certainty is usually a lot easier to live with than confusion. Anyway, power to the people. It's coming up to 12 noon. It's Friday. I don't know why I'm demob happy. I'm back in work next week on Monday. I'm off to the seaside tonight. That's probably why. So I've got a very Friday-feeling story for you after this. Four minutes after 12 is the time.
98:26
But before we get stuck into the next conversation...
98:31
which is going to be something along the lines of why does it matter?
98:35
And I'm looking at a story about spelling and grammar. Why? Why does it matter? Which is a very odd position to find myself in, given that I used to be something of a sort of grammar fascist. But before we get into that, just reflecting on yesterday's programme, and one of the great elephants in the room of international public discourse is the impact of climate change on migration. And one of our callers mentioned it yesterday.
99:01
And I'm looking at the footage of border crossings in the Spanish enclave. I think that's the right word that I'll probably mispronounce of Ceuta, which I think is within Morocco.
99:13
There is a word for this. It came up in the New York Times crossword last week. I think it's enclave. I think enclave is the word.
99:20
Or autoclet, no, that's something completely different. Stop writing words on my screen that don't help me express myself more clearly. And the reason why there are more and more people moving across the planet, the reasons are multiple. The reasons are myriad. But increasingly, people are going to be moving from inhabitable to habitable.
99:47
And there was something about the footage...
99:50
that shook me to my core. This sort of wave of humanity breaking through a border and flooding in to a territory that is a part of a country that is nowhere near as inhospitable.
100:11
as the parts of the world that they come from. Listen, I'm not suggesting for a minute that they're all climate refugees. Of course I'm not. But that is the way that we're going as a planet. It's another reason why.
100:23
We must pray for the sense of urgency that's been lacking from so much of this discourse for years to be achieved imminently, immediately. So tens of thousands of people entering Spanish territory... and doing so by any means possible, swimming, wading, clambering, breaking in, if you like, to Spanish territory. And of course, there'll be plenty of people popping up to tell you that they're all rapists or they're all burglars or they're all scum or they're all subhuman or they're all inhuman.
100:58
People have been doing that about various sections of society. So it's time immemorial. Sometimes it leads to Holocaust. Sometimes it leads to electoral success. Sometimes it leads to both. Sometimes it leads to pogroms. Sometimes it leads to ethnic cleansing. Sometimes it leads to all of the above.
101:16
But they are human beings. And if the cards had been dealt differently, it's an exclave, not an enclave. It's an exclave. That was the word. I think that was the word that came up in the New York Times crossword. I do old ones sometimes, so it may not have been this week. I may have got that one out of the archive. But it's a great word, right, if you're a crossword doer or indeed a Scrabble player, exclave.
101:38
And that just struck me because, of course, no one I don't think has brought the climate into the conversation about this story in Ceuta. Tens of thousands of human beings entering Spanish territory, the exclave of Ceuta, which is, I think, borders Morocco. And that's what it's going to look like. there's that horrible line i may share it with you before the end of the program i wanted to share that jonathan miller thing with you with enoch powell as well this week is that that's what happens when you see footage like this populists get really excited and they start well if we don't start deporting people then that's going to happen here and listen you know the world needs to come up with answers to these problems But the answer is unlikely to be.
102:27
The lasting answer is unlikely to be one that the populists come up with.
102:36
I want to move on to something completely different now.
102:39
It's a Lucy Powell story. The new education secretary has suggested that an ability to communicate is more important than specific aspects of grammar.
102:57
An ability to communicate is more important than specific aspects of grammar. It's funny. I was on... Swapping a few WhatsApps the other day, and it was yesterday, actually. I'm just going to find the message, because I think he was unfairly maligning me.
103:14
So...
103:16
Wayne my mate Wayne sent me a message and he said there instead of there T-H-E-R-I-R instead of T-H-E-R-E and he corrected it immediately and said I didn't want the grammar fascists to come after me and then he said and by that of course I mean you O'Brien and I thought I've never done that to a mate I've done it on air, which probably makes me at best a bit of a pedant. I've actually stopped doing it, even with the racists, because racists can be dyslexic too. So even when I get a really, really illiterate message, I've stopped.
103:53
pointing out i mean i've tried to stop because occasionally i can't help myself i'll say a word and then i'll go spelt wrong obviously because there is you know i used to think there was a correlation between intelligence and racism but then of course i realized that far from it uh so it's well maybe intelligence but certainly some highly educated people are incredibly it's quetta i think lots of people have probably been ringing in to teach me how to pronounce that word quetta um Well, now everyone's saying it's actually Hueta. Oh, forget it. Anyway, it's spelled C-U-E-T-A.
104:24
And that's quite pertinent to the conversation that we're about to have, actually. Because Lucy Powell is suggesting that the spelling test for primary school leavers is too obscure and indeed draconian.
104:38
She has argued or is arguing that children should be taught how to communicate rather than the really strict and specific aspects of grammar.
104:49
The producer of this program has asked me repeatedly to correct her when she deploys grammar incorrectly. And I have repeatedly refused because I think it makes me look like an arse. And, you know, what if someone's listening? I have enough trouble looking like that without actually adding to the illusion I think I'll go with. But I mean, how would it sound to you if you were like walking past and Eleanor had said something grammatically incorrect and you heard me correcting her? I don't think I even do it to my own children anymore.
105:22
And this is quite an odd development for me because if you'd met me 20 years ago or if you'd tuned into this program when I started, I'd have been biting my tongue all the time. I mean, you can't say that.
105:34
And then people would say to me I remember taking a call about 20 minutes ago, 20 minutes ago, about 20 years ago from an academic who was marking papers. So remember, I'd be into my 30s by now. So I'm like 14 years out of academia or say a decade out of academia. And I took a call from a teacher who was saying, oh, I don't bother correcting spelling now on university level essays.
106:02
undergraduate level essays. I don't bother correcting spelling now.
106:06
And I kind of went bonkers. I said, you what?
106:11
How dare you draw a salary as a member of the teaching profession? How dare you call yourself a professor? What do you mean you don't correct spelling? Whatever next civilization as we know it is crumbling about our ears.
106:26
And I think I might have been wrong.
106:31
She said, look, spelling is obviously important. Good grammar. I'm sure you want to talk to me about that as well. And spelling. I think what I've talked about in the past are some aspects of the SATs, the standard assessment tests, and the spelling and grammar test in that is particularly obscure parts.
106:47
I don't know that we need the specifics of it because the central question I'm going to ask you is not, is she right or is she wrong? It's why does it matter?
106:56
Why does it matter? I will think less of you if you send me really obviously misspelled messages.
107:07
And then I will remind myself that you might be dyslexic.
107:11
And I will almost always review my opinion of you unless the message that you've sent me is actually substantively toxic. So if you're a massive racist and you send me like 300 messages a day telling me that you're going to complain about how mean I am to Nigel Farage, then I'm not going to think more of you when I remember that you might be dyslexic and not just very bad. I nearly said thick then.
107:37
Poorly educated.
107:39
not your fault dyslexic not your fault racist not entirely your fault so why does it matter or indeed does it matter spelling and grammar if i understand what you mean you send me a message or you give me a ring you talk to me i've never corrected anyone could you imagine if i started doing that Someone sort of rang in and they had a, you know, very much a regional patois.
108:11
And I started saying, oh, you can't say that. I think you mean this. I'd sound like an absolute plum.
108:19
And don't say you already do, James, because I'd sound like even more of a plum than I already do.
108:24
So why does it matter? Why does it matter?
108:26
No, that's not the question, is it? One of the cleverest organisms I've ever encountered, Yoda.
108:34
He had terrible grammar. In fact, terrible grammar had he.
108:39
No one ever criticizes Yoda for his grammar, and he's like intergalactically clever, right?
108:46
Clever is he.
108:47
So if it's all right for Yoda, if it's good enough for Yoda, Good enough for you, is it, not why? 03456060973 is the number you need. Does it matter? Does it matter? Spelling and grammar. Do they matter?
109:05
Matter do they.
109:08
They matter do.
109:09
And it's not about not being able to understand me. If I can understand you, does it matter that you've spelt all the words wrong or constructed your sentences wrong?
109:23
incorrectly. Says who incorrectly? Who made the rules in the first place? So I've got this weird thing It's a bit like the conversation about working from home, actually, I realise now. Don't worry, I'm going to hit my marks on this one, and I do want to start taking calls. I'm not going to do a half an hour introduction, even though I am very much in a mood where I feel I could talk all day and take no calls at all ever again.
109:45
Perish of thought.
109:47
But tell me why it matters. Because I kind of feel that it does intellectually, but my guts, my bones are saying, James, why does it matter?
109:55
And then I came up with that genius thing about Yoda. I don't know where that came from.
110:00
It came from that. I do not know where.
110:02
Why does it matter? Does it matter? Does it actually matter? And if you were going to say yes to that, then why does it matter? If I understand exactly what you mean, who cares whether or not you can spell it or construct your sentences correctly? Answer, I thought I did.
110:17
I kind of still do.
110:19
But I can't tell you why.
110:21
Because I'm showing off how educated I am or how many books I read.
110:25
So what?
110:26
I could read loads of books and still be a really nasty piece of work. 0345 6060 973. If you don't want a half an hour introduction to this one, because I've got nothing else to say, I'll just say all the same things again in a slightly different order, which brings us back to Yoda. Then you better ring me now. It's 1217.
110:44
18 minutes after 12, Matt's put me in my place all the way from Northampton. Yoda, James, was a 900-year-old alien who whirled a light green stick around better than anyone else. If you corrected his grammar, he could likely outsmart you or cut you limb from limb. So it's not the zinger you thought. Ha ha.
111:01
It's good enough for Yoda. It's good enough for me. It's good enough for Yoda. It's good enough for me.
111:07
Why? Why does grammar and spelling matter? I kind of sense it does, but I couldn't tell you why. Sandra's in Borden. Sandra, what do you reckon?
111:14
Hi, James. Thanks for taking my call. I've not spoken to you before. I'm unique.
111:18
Why not? Oh, it's the big time now. It's the big time now, Sandra. It's the big, don't blow it. This is the big one.
111:25
Come on.
111:26
Go on, what's going on?
111:27
I used to work in higher education, and when you sift through job applications as a human in higher education, you immediately take a view of somebody who has poor spelling.
111:41
Yeah, of course you do.
111:42
And now, I suppose it's a question. Am I allowed to ask you a question?
111:46
Yeah, of course you are.
111:47
Just a little one. Now we move across to AI. Will AI that does that job sifting allow for incorrect spelling and grammar, or will it dismiss it?
112:00
Or, to answer your question with a question, which I don't really like people doing, but what's the point of being in charge if you can't rewrite your own rules?
112:08
Okay.
112:09
Will it become even more unforgivable to have grammar and spelling mistakes in your applications, given that you could have asked AI to correct them?
112:19
Yes, yeah, absolutely the point. But then you don't then read your own application.
112:24
No, but you run it through AI.
112:26
Yeah, yeah. Before you send it in.
112:29
It is important because you have to know the context of which word you're using and where and whom is going... Who's going to read it?
112:41
Yeah, I guess so. But, I mean, there is no... I mean, obviously, partly depending on the job that you're looking into, there's no guarantee that the person with good spelling is going to be the best potential employee.
112:54
Is that?
112:55
Absolutely not. Unless you're hiring a spelling teacher...
113:00
But if you're looking through 200 applications, it's a sift.
113:06
You know, it goes through that funnel, doesn't it? And it drops through and it drops through and you throw out those that haven't had the experience, you throw out those and you get down to five or six to interview. It's a sift.
113:21
I suppose so.
113:23
And yet, you can't really tell me why it matters. You can just say that it's useful in some contexts.
113:29
It doesn't change the quality of the communication. It just changes the quality of the feeling with which we receive that communication, if we've been raised a certain way, if we have been raised to put a kind of slightly excessive value on these things.
113:45
It changes the quality of the written communication.
113:50
So that's brought the two together. Apologies.
113:52
No, I don't know that it does.
113:55
I mean, think of two essays.
113:57
about Shakespeare, one of which is objectively brilliant. I don't know if you can be objectively brilliant, but every professor in the country would agree this is one of the finest analyses of Hamlet's To Be or Not To Be Solidically that I have ever read. This is a thing of absolute beauty. The spelling is atrocious.
114:20
And then someone else hands in a perfectly spelled, grammatically, absolutely faultless, low-grade analysis of the same soliloquy?
114:31
What is the importance of spelling and grammar there?
114:37
Oh, now you've got me.
114:39
I'd go for the brilliant essay.
114:45
However, that puts it back to my very first point. It's the context.
114:49
Yes. Yeah, it is the context.
114:51
It all comes down to context.
114:54
The context all comes down to, because we think of context as being an objective thing, but it's entirely subjective because context comes down to how much store you set by.
115:04
Grammar and spelling. There'll be someone else hiring who would choose to ignore that and would be looking for something else. And they may have their own. I'm going to use the word prejudices, but it's not in a negative or a nasty way. They may have their own preconceptions, not prejudices. And they might say, well, I'm not going to hire any Capricorns. I'm going to remove all the Capricorns from the list. I'm going to remove all the people that can't spell from the list. I don't see what we're left with. So context, it can be very subjective.
115:28
You say, why are you someone who cares so much about spelling and grammar?
115:33
It does not make sense because the cleverer person may be the one with the bad spelling.
115:38
I think. Thank you, Sandra. From Sandra to Sue, who's in Thorex. Sue, what would you like to say?
115:43
Well, first of all, I'd like to say I am actually dyslexic. Okay.
115:49
And I've worked very hard on my spelling in the past.
115:52
Yes.
115:53
And I think it is important because in a context of work, we're not just...
116:04
working with English as a first language.
116:07
No, that's true.
116:09
And if you're not spelling things correctly, you know, I mean, I used to work in finance and it'd be fine until we took on a Dutch company.
116:21
English isn't there for English. So if you're misspelling things, and sometimes misspelling things can actually change the whole context of an email or a document.
116:32
And so can a misplaced comma, of course.
116:34
Exactly, yeah. So that's why it is important. And, you know, it used to be sort of quite easy because you'd have, like, spell check and stuff and grammar check.
116:47
Yeah.
116:47
But I've actually found that with the...
116:50
incoming of AI that AI quite often thinks that it knows what I want to say better than I do and it will start completing a sentence for me and it takes me I've switched it off because when I'm doing an email or something it's it's it's putting in completely the wrong it's trying to anticipate what I'm trying to say And I'll read it.
117:21
And I have to read back everything that I do now, or I did do until I switched it off, because it was gobbledygook.
117:33
So the first and biggest answer to the question of why does it matter is because if you're incorrect, some people will not understand you.
117:41
Exactly, yeah. And, you know, I mean, the thing that we had...
117:45
I'm going to move the goalposts, all right?
117:48
Yeah.
117:49
So in a primary school, the teacher is going to understand what you mean.
117:54
So should you be punishing the children who are spelling things wrong, even though the teacher knows exactly what word they are using?
118:03
Not punish.
118:06
Penalise. Penalise. I don't mean you're going to give them a... Correct.
118:11
Yeah. Correct. Because...
118:15
If you put that foundation in at primary school that misspelling is okay, you learn so much more in those first primary school years than you do probably in secondary school.
118:30
And if you actually put that basis in... But, I mean, one of the problems that we had when I was working in the city, I mean, it's quite a while now, is that people would start using text speak...
118:40
Yeah, you're jumping around like a grasshopper. Are you moving into all sorts of subject areas?
118:45
No, but it's a similar sort of thing. So you mentioned to be or not to be.
118:50
That is the question.
118:52
Yeah, so if you did number two, letter B, or not.
118:59
Yeah, to be or not. There used to be a car with that registration on the embankment in London, actually. Someone famous lived there, I think.
119:06
Yeah, but, you know...
119:10
I might understand, you know, I'll sort of probably have to look twice. So it takes longer if things aren't speaking. If you don't have a uniform platform, it takes longer to actually understand.
119:22
Yeah, correcting isn't punishing either, is it? No, it's not. But why does it matter? Answer for ease of understanding. If everybody is singing from the same grammar sheet and the same spelling sheet, then overall levels of understanding are much higher. I can remember one of those.
119:37
And also, we're more international. Yeah, no, of course so.
119:39
Of course so, even more so. So, in fact, Lucy Power might be wrong. I mean, she would probably defend herself by saying, I'm not suggesting spelling doesn't matter at all. I'm just suggesting that we're going in a little bit too hard on some slightly obscure words on the sats for year six pupils. But you're steering me back towards being a bit of a grammar fascist, actually thinking it really does matter and that you can't. I remember something from school.
120:06
You could write this sentence using letters and numbers alone, because that's what you mean, isn't it, by the to be or not to be? To wise you are, to wise you be, I see you are, to wise for me. And the only word there written out in full is me.
120:23
Yeah.
120:25
Don't know why I said that. And I would see that, and I'd think, what?
120:30
Yeah.
120:31
and I'd have to sort of sit, and it takes longer.
120:34
Too wise you are. Too wise you be. Yeah. Yeah, you would. Yeah, so it speeds everything up, the ease of communication. So I guess maybe, I'm now wondering, where did the pushback come from?
120:47
Spelling and grammar, they are just sort of conventions, but conventions are the oil with which civilisation functions more smoothly. Ooh, I just made that up. It's 11.29. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Don't let me go home today without playing you a little bit of full disclosure. I've got a nice missing word round for you as well in a minute, if I can find it. I don't know how... I mean, actually, you can tell me. Out of all the full disclosures you've listened to, on which one do you think I was fanboying the most?
121:21
On which of the full disclosures that you've listened to, you can text me this during the next news bulletin, 84850, sharp key, on which one do you think I was most, not just starstruck, because it's not about the objective fame level, it's about my personal relationship with their work. Which one do you think I was most fanboying in?
121:43
Because I think that I've broken my own record with this week's guest. I was so utterly, utterly, what's the word I want? Just like delighted stroke, gobsmacked, transported, just overjoyed, fanboying to interview this week's guest. So just after all the ones you've ever listened to, And obviously, if you haven't listened to any, you can't really enter this game. But out of all the full disclosures you've listened to, on which one do you think I was most fanboying?
122:14
Because this week's, I think, will knock that into the proverbial cocked hat. It's half past 12. Amelia Cox is here with your headlines.
122:25
It is 33 minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I think the sentencing in that absolutely hideous... Let me double-check before I say anything else, but there may be some breaking news for you shortly.
122:42
We are not at that end of the news agenda for this hour. We are paddling around in the relative shallows with a question about grammar and spelling and the importance of or the questioning of the importance thereof. Why does it matter? And if it matters that much, then why aren't we doing more to fight against the decline in it or the decline in the respect for it? And the question of which in which of my full disclosure interviews do I sound most smitten or most fanboying?
123:15
I don't know.
123:17
that we can include the ones that I did on stage.
123:21
Wale suggests Lily Polman, the Holocaust survivor, who we spoke to just before lockdown started and who sadly we lost during lockdown. And that was certainly the one in which I felt most humble.
123:33
And most deeply moved.
123:37
And someone else has suggested the Gary Lineker one. John in Muswell Hill suggests the Gary Lineker one, which again took place in front of an audience. So I don't think they count because it's a different energy in the room. It's a different dynamic when there's an audience there. But I'm beginning to think I sound like a shameless fanboy on all of my Full Disclosure interviews because I've got about a dozen different suggestions, all of which made me go, yeah, fair enough. I don't invite anyone on to Full Disclosure unless I really, really want to spend an hour with them. It's not like the radio show.
124:04
It is literally that the idea... Oh, that's exciting. Imagine getting to spend an hour with them. So it has to be someone I already have a very positive view of, which perhaps explains why we're getting so many suggestions for which one was the one I fanboyed the most on. Harlan Coben's just come in. I'm watching his latest at the moment, which is just brilliant. Anyway, we're digressing. Spelling and grammar. And then a quick reveal of who the... I'm going to play you two clips from this week's Full Disclosure because... It is possibly the one in which I felt most fanboy, although that may not, of course, have come across in the interview.
124:38
Mia is in Cardiff. Mia, what do you reckon?
124:40
Hiya. Yeah, sorry. I'm a little bit nervous, so I do apologise if I'm rambling.
124:44
It's only me.
124:47
Yeah, so I think I have an interesting perspective on this. So I am dyslexic, like horrifically dyslexic as a kid. I couldn't spell my middle name dyslexic. It was bad.
124:56
What is your middle name?
124:58
Rhiannon.
124:59
Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, if it had been Jane, you'd have been even more horrifically dyslexic, wouldn't you? Rhiannon's quite a tricky name.
125:07
Yeah, it's just a little double letters. Sure. Yeah. But I'm also a qualified English teacher. Yeah.
125:15
And I went through the kind of stages of really struggling with grammar and really struggling with spelling, but also then coming out the other side of it and being highly critical of other people's mistakes in spelling and grammar. So, yeah. So I think something that you said before in terms of like, if we can understand what people are saying, does it really matter? I do think there is something to be said around the idea that we have a framework that we work towards. And if everyone is using their own rules, eventually that framework kind of collapses. So it's good to have a sort of recognized framework.
125:49
So there's that. There's also another slightly more philosophical and sociological kind of aspect of it, where language is very much a living thing. It develops as the people use it. So it's constantly changing and developing, depending on what is relevant and what is not.
126:09
And another, I'm sorry, I am rambling.
126:11
You're not rambling at all. Quite the opposite. You're just making me wonder whether you are very politely and diplomatically pointing out that I'm being a little bit binary about this.
126:23
Well, language is a reflection of the people that use it. And so are the rules in which language is used.
126:29
So a great example of this is the word sneak. And technically, technically, the past tense of the word sneak is sneaked. because it follows the framework of all the, like, peak, peaked. Yes. Yeah, you know, whatever. But colloquially, yeah, yeah, but colloquially, people started using snuck as the past tense.
126:49
Where did you grow up?
126:51
So my dad's American, my mum's Welsh.
126:54
Okay. Because your accent oscillates, doesn't it, a little bit? Yeah. I've not heard many British people say snuck. I think that's quite an American. It doesn't matter. I've heard it more and more.
127:03
I've heard it more and more. Okay. You went Welsh then? You went Welsh then? Yeah.
127:09
Now you've noticed it. You'll see it in TV shows, like British TV shows.
127:12
My daughter says gotten quite a lot, actually. Yeah. And it sounds grammatically correct when she does it.
127:18
But the thing is, now snuck is in the dictionary because it's a reflection of people using it. So it's not incorrect anymore. It's just an evolution.
127:27
But I think when it comes to correct spelling and grammar, I think a point that you made where if we can understand it, why does it matter, is that usually, I think what, like, People who have dyslexia or whatever, I would constantly get marked down in school because my spelling was terrible, my grammar was terrible, but my ideas were really good. That's not fair.
127:49
That's not fair.
127:51
Yeah. But I think there's a difference between...
127:56
having bad spelling and having a lack of exposure to different ideas and language, because I doubt that people who have an exposure to a variety of different texts, who have a really good framework for how spelling and grammar works, have a lack of ideas. And so that's that's kind of where it is. So it's like, usually if you are committed to not knowing about spelling and not knowing about grammar, you're limiting yourself to have an exposure of different ideas and perspectives and things like that.
128:34
So I would challenge you when that, that example that you said were one essay on, uh, on a Shakespearean sonnet was amazing. And the other was there, but one was riddled with spelling mistakes. Um, I doubt that that's because, if it's riddled with spelling mistakes, I doubt it's because that person had a lack of reading experience or a lack of exposure to ideas.
128:54
Yeah. So why would it be?
128:57
It's just a rubbish example.
128:59
It's just a rubbish example.
129:00
There's a variety of different reasons why people struggle with grammar. I mean, dyslexia is one. There's lots of different types of neurodivergencies, which means that you can't quite focus. So...
129:12
I don't know what I think now, thanks to you, Mia. Sorry. That's all right. So it matters, but it doesn't matter is really what you're telling me.
129:20
Yeah. Yeah. That's no good for a phone-in, Mia.
129:23
You can't be all nuanced and sophisticated like this on a radio phone-in.
129:27
But if you look at, like, Pidgin languages and Creole languages as well, another fantastic example of how, like, or John Agard's poem, Oxford Dawn, wonderful example of how just because it's not standardized doesn't mean I don't know what I'm saying.
129:41
Yeah. Yeah, of course. And I mean, some of the best stories of social mobility involve people ending up in places a million miles away from where they started and yet still sounding like they sounded when they started. And it would be a massive snob that had any problem whatsoever with that, wouldn't it?
129:58
Yeah.
129:59
I like this. Why have you given it? I mean, maybe you haven't. Maybe you're just a born radio phoning caller. But why have you given this so much thought?
130:06
Um... I think it's just because it's kind of my life experience. I've been on the side of it where I was constantly being told, like, you know, oh, she's really, really good verbally, but, you know, she just needs to look over her work more. And I was like, I've looked over it 10,000 times and I didn't see a single mistake. Just because that's the nature. I can't spot my own mistakes a lot of the time.
130:28
with dyslexia.
130:29
No wonder you love that poem. No wonder you love the John Agar poem. That would be like a West Indian patois, would it? Or what accent? I mean, I should really let him read it. I don't want to read it out myself. Me not know Oxford Don.
130:45
I think there's a little bit where it's like a...
130:48
like, you know, I'm slashing the Queen's syntax or something like that. It's really, really clever. It's really, really interesting.
130:54
So making the Queen's English accessory to my offence.
130:58
My offence, yeah.
131:00
And that, yeah, I mean, good Lord, what an amazing call. I'm going to start doing a little... I can't share too much details about this, but we're going to start providing some extra content soon for some people. And I will have to go over the calls in a week, two or three calls from the week that have stayed with me the most. Yours this week would very much be one of them, Mia. Thank you. That's absolutely fascinating. And that poem really can't be recommended highly enough when it comes to this very conversation that we're having now. Listen, Mr. Oxford Don... by John Agard.
131:31
1242 is the time. I want to play you a little bit of this week's full disclosure interview. It's from British Guyana, or Guyana as it's called now. So yeah, it would have been a Caribbean accent that he was speaking and indeed writing. It's still around, I think.
131:49
Tim Booth, lead singer of James. There's three, four attitudes you can have to the band James. You might know two or three songs of theirs and very little else, in which case I'm telling you now you're wrong. You actually know a lot more songs of theirs. You just don't realize that they're James when you hear them playing in a club or at the radio or anything like that. You may think that they kind of peaked during Manchester, which isn't true either. Their last album was one of my all-time favorites. They've had hiatuses, but they've continued to make exceptional music for decades now.
132:25
And sitting down with Tim Boo, the lead singer of James, which is very much a collective album, was one of the greatest pleasures of my interviewing life. And here is just a little flavour of why.
132:38
I loved punk. It was great fun. But again, it was authentically, emotionally real.
132:44
Which is the opposite of what you had to be at school.
132:46
Yeah.
132:47
And how successful were you at that? Because so much of what you've done since is profoundly spiritual, and yet that is anathema, particularly for that second housemaster who would have hated anything that smacked of spiritual or smacked of cultural or artistic, anything that was airy-fairy. How far from your true self did you travel during this period? Were you cruel to other kids?
133:12
Oh, that's a great question. God... Once. I do remember an incident going, oh my God, what am I doing?
133:20
But no, I don't think in general I was. And that housemaster, after my last exam, kicked me out. You've got nothing to offer the school.
133:30
I know you're manipulating the system. I was sneaking out to see bands downtown. I was watching the Old Grey Whistle Test on television. You weren't allowed to, you know, at low volume because I knew it was feeding me. And of course, you look at what I became. Obviously, this was from my soul.
133:47
But what happened was the next day, a boy who was coming to be vice head of school went into him and said, you can't throw him out. You don't know what he does for the younger kids and the homesick kids. And he doesn't tell anyone. And so I don't think generally I was because he spoke up for me.
134:05
What did you do for the homesick kids?
134:08
Just try to make them feel like they weren't alone.
134:12
You know, there was an older boy who did that to me and was accused of being queer because of it. Let me sit in his bed, sit and listen to music. Have a cup of coffee, cup of Nescafe. Jonathan Akers, if you're out there, thank you.
134:29
Just seeing you.
134:33
Yeah.
134:35
You're getting quite emotional.
134:36
Mm-hmm.
134:37
Yeah, because the contrast between somebody who cared in an environment where caring was weakness would have been so acute and so powerful.
134:47
Yeah.
134:47
And so you paid it forward, as they say. You tried to be Jonathan Aikhus to other children.
134:53
I think so. You might find a few kids from that time who might say otherwise, but you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. But that was beautiful that that boy stood up for me.
135:02
It is 12.48. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. He's not messing about, Andy Burnham, is he? Not only has he already attacked the plan to FIFA's plan, Gianni Sikofantino's plan to flog off the World Cup to Jared Kushner's brother, he's gone again. He's now released a statement stating that Gianni Infantino is the, quote, wrong man to lead the organisation. in the wake of the controversial plan to seek private investment in a company to run the World Cup. And Burnham obviously cares.
135:32
It's another example of how unlucky Keir Starmer was as prime minister, because Starmer is an absolute stone-cold, authentic football fan as well. He just doesn't have the air of credibility that Burnham has. That's not fair. He is no more credible than Keir Starmer as a football fan. But I'm afraid that Burnham's views on this will just land more sincerely with people than Starmer's, and that is unfair. He did it yesterday, and someone we happily haven't heard much from recently got involved, and it tickled me pink.
136:05
So Andy Burnham posted about the football. And Suella Braverman, the only time I ever see things that have happened on Twitter are either when Henry Riley alerts me to it or when it actually makes the poke, the satirical website, the poke, who I really enjoy. But they spend a lot of time trawling through the best and the worst of Twitter. So Andy Burnham posted about football. And Suella Braverman posted, and I'm going to quote her directly because we're talking about the importance of grammar.
136:34
She posted, yeah, but what about the boat, Andy?
136:38
To a post about football.
136:41
conveniently overlooking the fact that the highest ever crossings, the highest ever number of crossings of the Channel in small boats occurred when she was literally Home Secretary. That's, if you like, the Reform UK playbook. Just treat the people that support you like bigoted fools. Don't think that they'll even be wise enough to remember that you were Home Secretary when there were more crossings than ever before, or since.
137:09
And...
137:10
pretend that it's somehow relevant to respond to a tweet about football by writing, yeah, but what about the boats, Andy? And I was trying, I just found myself thinking that's not very ministerial language. Yeah, but, yeah, but what about the boats, Andy? And I was trying to think who, it reminded me of someone.
137:28
And I began to think that perhaps, who does it remind you of? Yeah, but what about the boats, Andy?
137:38
what about the boats andy so soella braverman they're making a bid to become the vicky pollard of british politics 12 51 is the time i need to play another clip of tim before i go but um i love katie's message saying that when she was little her friend's mum was the pr for james and her and her friend woke up one night while she was having a party, and Tim Booth sang us back to sleep. A little concert for two. I didn't know before the interview that he'd been to a school a bit like mine, which is why we connected so deeply in the clip that you just heard.
138:09
Take it back to the dance floor in the next clip that I will play for you. Don't worry. Back to grammar and spelling. Tim's in High Wycombe. Tim, what made you pick up the phone?
138:19
Oh, hello. I'm a sub-editor, so I kind of correct. other people's writing for...
138:26
I know what a sub-editor... Oh, some people listening won't, of course. They might not. No, exactly.
138:31
So all day long I've got other people's words in front of me and I kind of correct them and some of that's spelling, some of that's grammar, some of it's checking facts and stuff.
138:44
And my take on it is that it actually reiterates a lot of what Mia was saying. Was it Mia?
138:50
Yes, yes, Mia Rhiannon.
138:53
It reiterates what she was saying, which is actually having something to say is more something interesting or useful or important to say is more important than the grammar that you use to say it or to write it. And the grammar becomes a vehicle for getting your point across and for holding people's attention depending on what it is you're writing and who your audience is. So in the sort of the in the grown-up world, in the arena of sort of published content, there's a bit of a battle to hold people's attention and good grammar can do that and bad grammar can put people off and it can be subtly bad or it can be blatantly bad.
139:41
And subtly bad grammar, I think, if you're if the reader has to treat the sentence like a bit of a... To decipher it almost. Yeah, it becomes an obstacle course. If you've got hurdles and speed bumps and things that you're having to reprocess and microprocess in real time as you're reading, you're not properly paying attention to the information in the thing you're reading. And it can consciously or unconsciously put people off and they won't take in what you're saying.
140:14
So really good grammar can make a difference.
140:17
Do you think that because of the more widespread appreciation of dyslexia, we've kind of let the pendulum swing too far the other way? We should be really looking after dyslexic people, but not compromising spelling and particularly grammatical standards, which is not necessarily a dyslexic thing. As a consequence, we should be. Strict is a nasty word. We're all thinking of Victorian standards. teaching methods but we should be teaching children that it matters but also that look you're not going to get into any trouble if you get it wrong but it matters in the same way that crossing the road matters you know it's it's it's just going to make you better it's going to make you more easily understood it's going to help you communicate your thoughts and your absolutely yeah it's a tool definitely yeah but equally i think younger people should be taught that there's
141:06
This having something to say thing is the important part, and the actual real skill that young people need to learn, even at primary school age, is we can think things and know things in our head, but turning those into words is often the battle, whether they're spoken words or written words. Yeah, it's beautifully put. And it's that...
141:29
it's that transition from what we've got in our head, either into sentences that we speak or we write. And what we speak and what we write come from different parts of our brain. We hold our information in one place. then we translate it into written words using one bit of our brain or spoken words using another, which is why someone can be very, very articulate in speech, but they really, really struggle with written.
141:51
There it is. You're brilliant. Do you want to know something funny? Go on. I mean, you already know what your name is, but I'd kind of forgotten after I introduced you. I got a message off Hayden that said, I used to work in car rental, James, and Tim once rented a car from me. I was the branch manager, so I had to pick him up and drop him off. I was really taken aback by how nice and down to earth he was. And I'm thinking, flipping out, how can you recognise a copy editor from High Wycombe just on the strength of a phone call to the radio station? And I'm reading this thinking, what's going on? And then I suddenly remembered I played the clip of Tim Booth just before you came on.
142:23
Different Tim. A different Tim indeed. 12.56 was the time. Here's the other Tim talking about, you know, probably the moment that they, as a band, that James moved into the stratosphere.
142:35
We started getting regular gigs, Manchester, London, and Glasgow. And the Manchester and Glasgow audiences would double every time.
142:45
And the Glasgow ones became passionate.
142:49
And you're going, we're doing something right. Someone's getting this.
142:53
Even though we never got played once on daytime radio for the first seven years. Just Peel. John Peel. Did a Peel session. A couple of Peel sessions.
143:02
So it was seeing the audiences amplify and their passion amplify in Manchester and Glasgow and to some degree London. So even though people are like, you're not making any money and my parents are like, you've been doing this six years for God's sake. But by six years, we were playing to thousands of people. And they were going crazy. And so, and we had to sit down. We started playing it live a year and a half before we released it.
143:30
And probably the fourth gig in Paris at Le Locomotive, a thousand people.
143:38
And one by one, the audience sat down on the floor.
143:43
Magic.
143:45
And you're like, this is an unreleased song.
143:48
And by the end of the song, sit down, the whole audience was sitting on the floor.
143:53
And something's just happened.
143:56
You didn't manipulate. Incredible.
144:01
Still gets you now. Why wouldn't it?
144:04
I mean, the list of people you suggested I'd been most fanboying with in the course of full disclosure means that it was a stupid question to ask because pretty much all of them. Martin Shaw, you're damn right on that. John Cleese, says Mike, and then points out that it might be a slightly different vibe in the studio if I were to sit down with John now. Tim Roth, that one was over... Zoom during during lockdown. Graham Park, David Dimbleby, Rupert Everett, Amber Rudd, Angela Rayner, Gary Lineker. Yeah. Harlan Coben, Jamila Jamil. Yeah, you're right.
144:35
I did. Stuart Lee. Gosh, Billy Idol. Yeah. All right. Obviously, I often come across as a bit of a fanboy in the course of those conversations. Neil says, would you ever have Nigel Farage on full disclosure? No. But I absolutely want him on the programme. The invitation has now been in position for 12 years. 12 years Nigel has had an open invitation to come on this programme. We can talk about everything. Freedom of speech, the parameters of political discourse, policies, donations, anything you want, mate. 12 years ago, he challenged me. He was on Nick Ferrari's programme.
145:06
And someone rang in and said, James O'Brien thinks you're a racist. And he said, well, I challenge James O'Brien to a debate. So he doesn't talk like that, does he? So I got him on. I accepted his challenge. I didn't even want to have a debate. I just wanted to interview the guy, see if he was as unpleasant as I thought he was.
145:21
I'll leave you to decide what happened. You can still see the video on YouTube. But I've been waiting 12 years for him to come back.
145:29
I don't know quite what possible excuse he could have for such cowardice, but I'm sure he's got one. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day. So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now.
145:52
Tom Swarbrick will be with you at four. But now she's been standing in for Sheila Fogarty all week and she's still here. It's Asma, that's a poem, that. She's still here. That's your intro now. She's still here. It's Asma Mir.
146:03
This has been a Global Player original production.
